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Post by kymahalei on Dec 29, 2009 20:25:55 GMT -6
With all the cave settings that crop up in Middle Earth, I'd like to know if there is a definitive way that they were lit. Based on what I found at the website below, I can accept that underground cities are possible, but I stall out when trying to describe things in Thranduil's stronghold, because I can never get the lighting just right. (I guess I also want to know if Annatar and his students ever made the light globes that float through a couple of Lizard stories, or if they are just reasonable extrapolations of Annatar's creative mind.) Any thoughts are welcome. PS Here is a RL example of a cave city. Eighteen stories deep and able to house 20,000 people. . . but how did they see where they were going? www.cappadocia.travel/destination_guide#_602732399
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Post by nierielraina on Dec 30, 2009 2:27:35 GMT -6
From The Hobbit: Inside the passages were lit with red torch-light, and the elf-guards sang as they marched along the twisting, crossing and echoing passages. These were not like those of the goblin-cities; they were smaller, less deep underground, and filled with a cleaner air. In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking on a chair of carven wood. (I'm certain Tolkien forgot to mention it was intricately carved. ) blah blah crown of berries, staff of oak in his hand... I wrote Thranduil's halls filled with red torch light and got yelled at that they would be smokey, and yet that is how Tolkien described them. (not with smoke but the red light). I think the fires were funny somehow, with the way they glowed in the forest as well. I tend not to get too magical in my writing but in this, I think it must play a part, like the gates obeying a password. (or was it they had voice recognition software?) ;D But it's a thought to consider: if you use fire, what about the smoke? and the fresh air? I know some people use 'light crystals', whatever those are. Some use Feanorian lamps like they use in Lothlorien (Flashlights, I suppose, or were they Coleman lanterns?) I have seen crystals and mirrors used to reflect down vents to refract daylight into caverns and I think dwarves would have perfected this method. But at night, I don't think starlight would be enough to light halls underground. None of this is probably very helpful, but there's my two cents worth.
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Post by jael on Dec 30, 2009 10:25:11 GMT -6
With all the cave settings that crop up in Middle Earth, I'd like to know if there is a definitive way that they were lit
Which cave and where? As NiRi said, Tolkien mentions Thranduil's corridors being lit by torchlight. The Sil isn't my area of expertise, but I've read somewhere that Melian had 'lamps' to light Menegroth. I recall at least one light shaft in Moria in Fellowship.
I recall that incident. I love that lady dearly, but it's a hoot when RL experts make their pronouncements on how things ought to be, while not actually, y'know, having read the pertinent books.
I've kind of split the difference with Thranduil's caves, using torches in the hallways and candelabra in the rooms, with strategic light tubes and refracting crystals as well.
Um, is it not possible to bore a chimney shaft to vent smoke from a fireplace? I would think the Dwarves had to have fires for heating and forging too, and that means chimneys.
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Post by pandemonium on Dec 30, 2009 14:41:35 GMT -6
I will assume that you are referring to my hackery although possibly not so forgive me the presumption of answering if I am wrong.
Indeed I am making assumptions -- logical extrapolations, if you will -- from Tolkien's remarks in Letter 153 (or whichever the one he drafted to Peter Hastings was) that the Gwaith-i-Mírdain wanted the knowledge that Sauron genuinely possessed. Tolkien does not state explicitly what that knowledge was, but in the same letter, he notes that the Noldor were always on the side of "what we would call science and technology." (paraphrasing) So, I presume that not all of Sauron's technology is "tainted", not at first. Thus the lamps that (my version of) Annatar's student creates (actually a second generation version of the Fëanorian lights, which in my 'verse employ bioluminescence immobilized and stabilized in a crystalline matrix) are my fanon, not canon. To echo your remark, I see these as a reasonable outgrowth of the technology that gradually reeled in the smiths of Eregion.
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Post by kymahalei on Dec 30, 2009 16:10:37 GMT -6
Thanks, Nieriel Raina for the reminder. As far as the smoke and ventilation, I think that issues related to air quality and waste removal would have to have been resolved one way or another, and was actually done in Mazikoy.
Menegroth was lit by "torch and lantern" (Lay of Luthien), but they also had another light source, thanks to Melian's Maia power. Much as I'd love to play around with some of those nifty lamps that Pandemonium's Istyar contrived, I think I'll have to settle for the devices of the Dwarves, since they were the ones who crafted Doriath, Orophur's hometown.
Hmmm (thinking out loud here). Would it be too far fetched to have a fuel source like, say bat dung, modified with something to create slow burning, bright and long lasting red flames? I hate to think of using wax or tallow, since it would require enourmous resources to keep things lit. . .
Jael, I like your candelabra since I do prefer my scenes well lit. May I borrow them?
ooh, thinking about this is much more fun that writing reviews at MEFA, but duty calls ...
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Post by pandemonium on Dec 30, 2009 16:16:53 GMT -6
That Thranduil would work with the Dwarves nearby makes a lot of sense to me. I've never imagined that Thranduil would ever have been too enamoured of Noldorin technology, whether or not the Istyar had anything to do with it or not. There's no reason that the Dwarves might not have concocted another rather marvelous technology! They certainly would in my 'verse. ETA: Warning -- extrapolation of canon ahead! How about oil lights/lamps with perhaps nut oil as the combustant? Perhaps the Dwarves have devised lamps that might be more efficient at burning the oil and have coupled these to refractive or mirrored glass? Couple that with light shafts. I'll save the theoretical discourse on natural lighting being necessary for Elvish, Dwarvish and Mannish pineal glands. Crud, this is more fun to think about.
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Post by jael on Dec 30, 2009 19:02:00 GMT -6
Sure! I can't really slap a copyright on the idea that Thranduil would be smart enough to use candles. ;D
I love the idea of burning bat . . ., er, guano.
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Post by crowdaughter on Jan 5, 2010 6:39:22 GMT -6
Well, in the Jael!verse, there should be the possibility to use (bio-)gas light, as soon as somebody invented that - you have this elaborate waste disposal system in Thranduil's caves, after all. ;D
However, I admit I always had my problems with Tolkien's torches as the source of light in Menegroth, in Thranduil's caves and in Moria, too, canon as they may be. I am sure that it works, but still, smoke and clean air remains to be a problem. I always wonder how they would have managed to get enough fresh air in, even with ventilation shafts.
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sanna
Councillor
Eternal Bosom of Hot Love
Posts: 189
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Post by sanna on Jan 5, 2010 7:48:32 GMT -6
Also the smoke and soot would blacken all those lovely decorations and wall hangings.
I wonder what they used in mines before electric lights?
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Post by pandemonium on Jan 5, 2010 8:15:52 GMT -6
Also the smoke and soot would blacken all those lovely decorations and wall hangings. I wonder what they used in mines before electric lights? Woo hoo! Lookee here: Ancient Roman miningTo reiterate, "torches" may be what is written in the books, but also keep in mind Tolkien's sentiments that the scientific concerned him as much as the theological, etc. So oil lights, which were quite common before electricity, make extracanonical sense. Additionally, with regard to canon, Tolkien alluded to more contemporary technologies (those of the 18th, 19th and maybe early 20th century) throughout his writings in his imaginary history. So, personally, I would not be bound by "torches."
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Post by russandol on Jan 5, 2010 9:29:10 GMT -6
How long were the Elves around? I still can't believe that in all those ages of the world they could not come up with electricity or at least something better than smoking bits of wood. Ok, lightbulbs in ME would not sound right, but...
If we mere Followers have managed to go beyond torches I am sure the First-born did as well. After all they had Aule to teach them and creative people like Feanor, who even invented some kind of lamp!
And how about the light of Earendil in Galadriel's gift to Frodo?? Perhaps it did not use Duracell batteries, but something must have been going on in there... ;D
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Post by jael on Jan 5, 2010 9:45:40 GMT -6
It depends. In Mammoth Cave Kentucky, where aboriginals explored and mined mineral salts, we know how far they penetrated from the torch marks on the ceiling and the burnt out torches they left behind. Not just that. I'm frequently having people tell me that Elves wouldn't have figured out pockets or buttons. Puh-leeze! Thranduil lighting farts -- the idea amused both him and me.
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