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Post by Darth Fingon on Apr 14, 2008 13:28:27 GMT -6
This thread has been moved over here to a research board rather than filling up Pandemonium's WIP, and the discussion is easier to find in the future.
Lethe:
I agree with your view that places built as grand, permanent homes would be somewhat more modern: Gondolin, of course, and (in a different style) Nargothrond. I see Eithel Sirion as less of a palace and more of a fortress: it's there for a functional purpose, and, living that close to Angband in an assault position, the Elves must have known they were in constant danger. So while they did have the skill to make it a place of beauty, would they have taken the time to make a fantastic structure that they knew might only last a few years?
This is my take on it, for the early part of the First Age, at least. I have Eithel Sirion start off as a rough and quickly built (by Noldorin standards) fortress, which is then rebuilt after 100 or so years into something more decorative but still on the functional side.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Apr 14, 2008 13:53:05 GMT -6
I should also mention that I'm sure most of my bias against Neuschwanstein as Noldorin comes from the fact that I know it was built in the 19th century. Far too new!
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Post by oshun on Apr 14, 2008 14:28:17 GMT -6
That would be Neuschwanstein. In my personal view, it looks too 'modern' to be a Himring or Barad Eithel: I always imagine those ones as having a more Dark Ages look. Me too. I would think it was definitely rougher. You have now inspired me to look for a model for my concept of Himring.
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Post by lethe on Apr 14, 2008 15:13:05 GMT -6
Don't take any notice of me, it's only my imagination. I don't mind men mucking it, lol, but not the Elves, and I don't like humanizing them and placing them in surroundings which are drab. Initially,of course in a new land things are always * frontier * but * rough * allied to the word Elves ...I can't make it fit in my mind. I went around looking for a lot of images for Gondolin, but most of the ones I found were fantasy art and were not Gondolin they were just fantasy cities I suppose. I like realism to a degree but when it gets too gritty and mundane I add fluted pillars, running water and underfloor heating. Not straight away, naturally, but in time.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Apr 14, 2008 16:15:52 GMT -6
Don't take any notice of me, it's only my imagination. I don't mind men mucking it, lol, but not the Elves, and I don't like humanizing them and placing them in surroundings which are drab. We must be complete opposites, then: this is all I do.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Apr 14, 2008 16:17:09 GMT -6
Me too. I would think it was definitely rougher. You have now inspired me to look for a model for my concept of Himring. I think Carcassona is very similar to what I have in mind for Eithel Sirion.
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Post by Moreth on Apr 14, 2008 17:12:39 GMT -6
Me too. I would think it was definitely rougher. You have now inspired me to look for a model for my concept of Himring. I think Carcassona is very similar to what I have in mind for Eithel Sirion. Warwick Castle works for me - but Carcassone is good too! Especially since it's a walled town, not just a garrison. For Himring, I'd actually go back to the basic hill-forts - motte and bailey style for the first days - and something like Durham Keep later... but then, I love Oshun's rather 'thrown together' army camps since it gives an edge to the Noldor exiles
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Post by jael on Apr 15, 2008 22:22:56 GMT -6
Reading your stories, I've always pictured one of those round Norman towers with very thick stone walls.
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Post by pandemonium on May 2, 2008 10:54:57 GMT -6
Reading your stories, I've always pictured one of those round Norman towers with very thick stone walls. Yep, that's the same image that pops into my noggin when reading Darth's works. A belated comment on Elvish architecture: this one pertains to "Not Fade Away." Jael, you should have heard my shriek of delight when I read Aaron Rivers' comment that he would not miss the Prairie Style exhibit at the Art Institute of Chicago and that "Frank was one of ours." That Aaron Rivers and crew would embrace the Prairie Style is perfection. To further illustrate how Frank Lloyd Wright (FLW) was "one of ours" as Aaron said, here's an anecdote recounted by my spouse, an architect. When my husband took architectural history as an undergrad, the instructor personally knew FLW and told various stories to the class about him including this one: When FLW was setting up Taliesin at Spring Green, he told the farm manager to replace the Holstein dairy cattle (for those unfamiliar with dairy cattle, these are the black and white beasts) with Jersey cows. The farm manager countered that the Holsteins produced much more milk than the Jerseys. Wright summarily stated that milk production did not concern him, and that the Jerseys with their honey-brown coloring would be much more aesthetically pleasing against the green pastures of Taliesin's farmland. The Holsteins were replaced by Jerseys. ;D Yes, I do believe Aaron's on to something there. With his keen aesthetic sensibilities, FLW must have been one of theirs.
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Post by lenine on May 2, 2008 20:38:57 GMT -6
A caretaker at Taliesin told me a similar story, but about chickens! FLW said the white ones looked like newspaper blowing around the ground, so he wanted red ones, and didn't give a hang about how good they were at laying eggs. Unfortunately (the caretaker went on to say), that mindset is why the home at Taliesin is slowly sliding down the hill. The last time I was there the hill was covered with black plastic held town by old tires, trying to stem the erosion. It was meant to be pretty to look at, but he didn't expect it to stand for this long.
It's a fascinating place.
Hm. I guess this was pretty OT for the Evlish Architecture thread. I will go back to lurking.
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Post by pandemonium on May 5, 2008 7:54:38 GMT -6
A caretaker at Taliesin told me a similar story, but about chickens! FLW said the white ones looked like newspaper blowing around the ground, so he wanted red ones, and didn't give a hang about how good they were at laying eggs. Unfortunately (the caretaker went on to say), that mindset is why the home at Taliesin is slowly sliding down the hill. The last time I was there the hill was covered with black plastic held town by old tires, trying to stem the erosion. It was meant to be pretty to look at, but he didn't expect it to stand for this long. It's a fascinating place. Hm. I guess this was pretty OT for the Evlish Architecture thread. I will go back to lurking. Ha! Brown cows or red chickens? So this color of livestock/poultry anecdote could very well be apocryphal. On the other hand, Wright was known to appear in his clients' homes to ensure they hadn't moved the furniture - which he had designed to fit with the house - from where he had it positioned originally. So maybe the chicken and cow story has some kernel of truth. Yeah, the last time I visited Taliesin (many years ago), it was shabby and deteriorating. Yep, Wright was often more about form than function, but oh, what form! While it lasts anyway. Er, yes, off-topic but what the hell...
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Post by jael on May 5, 2008 12:27:35 GMT -6
Your spouse is an architect? My father and grandfather were architects. Furthermore, my father's first job out of school was in a firm with John Lautner, a former Wright apprentice. I live in a house designed and built by my father -- and I would call it third generation Prairie. I've been out to Taliesin too, and found myself impressed by the feeling of utter peace that descends on a person in that valley and in that house in particular. Hence my use of the 'rustic yet surprisingly sophisticated' aesthetic of Oropher and Thranduil in their back to nature movement. I based it on what I learned from Wright. AND he designed dresses for the lady of the house to wear that would not clash with the decor. I thought that was a bit over the top until I saw a photo of a turn of the century woman in ruffles standing out in front of one of the early Prairie houses. At which point I said, "Go Frank!" For the record, I'm just as bad about colors and furniture placement as he was. I borrowed yet another Wrightian anecdote for an earlier story. In Call of Duty, Thranduil has designed his throne room with a light shaft that illuminates him as he sits on his throne. My father told me that Wright had designed the dining hall at Taliesin such that a beam of light would strike him at the dinner hour -- as if he were being blessed from On High. Like my Thranduil, FLW was not lacking in the ego department.
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