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Post by jael on Jul 19, 2009 19:43:05 GMT -6
Oh, puh-leeze! Obviously a member of the More Tolkien Than Thou Society, who never actually read the books.  |
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Post by nierielraina on Jul 19, 2009 21:58:36 GMT -6
I agree with Aearwen about the use of elleth/ellith/ellon/ellyn. If you want to get really technical, in the elves' minds, that is exactly the term they are thinking of (provided those elves are thinking in Sindarin) and so I don't have a problem with them. I've wobbled back and forth on the fence and have given into pressure because certain people I strongly admire in fandom have stated they will click off a story that has those words or think such things are for newbies, even though I would prefer to use them. I have found that it really confuses many readers to use the terms man/woman/girl/boy when refering to elves, though I understand the arguments for it and would not click off a story that referred to elves in such a way. But in the same vein, I also can understand using the actual correct Sindarin terms for elf-man and elf-woman by those who wish to show a clear distinction and to avoid confusion. Technically, the elf in strict POV is thinking in Sindarin and as such, is thinking of himself as an ellon, so why is that such a big problem for some people?
I also find it disturbing that many people judge an author's entire writing based on such pettiness, such as: the use of a certain word, different interpretations of canon, or elves riding with a saddle, etc. It all falls into something of an elitist attitude IMO that I would prefer to avoid. It boils down to judging someone, not by their actual writing skills, but by the author's preference to use a certain word choice or adhering or not adhering to a certain interpretation of canon. Should a story not be judged on the actual writing, instead of letting a single word turn you off what would otherwise be a wonderful story?
Just my two cents.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Jul 19, 2009 23:03:17 GMT -6
I agree with Aearwen about the use of elleth/ellith/ellon/ellyn. If you want to get really technical, in the elves' minds, that is exactly the term they are thinking of (provided those elves are thinking in Sindarin) and so I don't have a problem with them. But are they? We can't know that for sure. There are other gender-defining words in Sindarin besides ellon and elleth. Say, anu and inu. Or dîr and dîs. My main dislike of ellon and elleth comes from the fact that, unless there are Men and Dwarves around, an Elf may not consciously and continuously think of himself as an Elf-man. He's just an adult male of his people. The minute Men/Dwarves/Hobbits/Valar/etc. come into play, it's a different story, but when there are only Elves, it seems a little odd to me to always draw attention to the Elf aspect. Because we have no comparable species-related situation in English, it's impossible to say how we would react if we had to choose between 'man' and a word that means specifically 'human male' in self-reference. But we can sort of compare this situation to nationalities. Talking about himself, an Englishman won't call himself an Englishman in everyday lanuage, unless it's to draw attention to the fact that he's English instead of any other nationality. Such as, when he's asserting that he's not one of those evil French bastards. But you won't see a story populated entirely with Englishmen when they're thinking of themselves as Englishmen at all times. They're just men. The 'English' only comes into play when another contrasting nationality is introduced. So, as I see it, ellon is used to differentiate an Elf from a mortal Man: ellon vs adan. |
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Post by aearwen on Jul 20, 2009 3:38:26 GMT -6
I agree with Aearwen about the use of elleth/ellith/ellon/ellyn. If you want to get really technical, in the elves' minds, that is exactly the term they are thinking of (provided those elves are thinking in Sindarin) and so I don't have a problem with them. But are they? We can't know that for sure. There are other gender-defining words in Sindarin besides ellon and elleth. Say, anu and inu. Or dîr and dîs. My main dislike of ellon and elleth comes from the fact that, unless there are Men and Dwarves around, an Elf may not consciously and continuously think of himself as an Elf-man. He's just an adult male of his people. OK. I can buy that - kinda. Funny that although I know very little Quenya, I know that it uses ner and nis. So the Sindarin equivalents are dîr and dîs, eh? What are the plurals for those two? Does the "î" change to anything to indicate plural - "y" for example - or are the words both singular and plural as given? I think that is why, from time to time, I used to use "male" and "female" without any race indicator between adan and edhel. The problem is that "man" and "woman" are more species specific than a simple "male" or "female", in the same way that "buck" and "doe", "tom" and "queen", "boar" and "sow" are. Our English usage is that "man" is "male of the species" and "woman" is "female of the species", with the "species" in question being homo sapiens sapiens. Yup. But I appreciate having something Sindarin that distinctly means "male/female of the species". And like nethben, I may start using dîr/dîs in my works when one Elf talks to another about a "male/female of the species" when the "species" in question is homo eldarinses (or however we have constructed the pseudo-Latin designation of edhel. |
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Post by Darth Fingon on Jul 20, 2009 8:44:23 GMT -6
So the Sindarin equivalents are dîr and dîs, eh? What are the plurals for those two? Yeah, dîr and dîs are words that have a generic meaning of 'adult male/female'. Could be used for Elf, Man, Dwarf, or Hobbit. There are no distinct plural forms. |
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Post by jael on Jul 20, 2009 11:09:25 GMT -6
I don't click off of anything, except maybe Grelvish, and not always then.
Just for purposes of discussion, I'll quote from the Silmarillion:
And even as Turin came up the dreadful sack of Nargothrond was well nigh achieved. The Orcs had slain or driven off all that remained at arms, and were even then ransacking the great halls and chambers, plundering and destroying; but those of the women and maidens that were not burned or slain they had herded onto the terraces before the doors . . .
We don't have to use ellon/elleth or dîr/dîs to accurately describe Elves.
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Post by pandemonium on Jul 20, 2009 12:32:34 GMT -6
Pedantic biologist alert! Pedantic biologist alert! JRRT wrote (cf. his letter to Peter Hastings) that Elves and Men were evidently of the same race and “biologically akin,” or Elf-Man unions (Tuor & Idril, Luthien and Beren, Imrazôr and Mithrellas) even if rare (in certain written historic records  ) would not be able to produce fertile offspring, e.g., Earendil, Dior and Galador. So more accurately, you’re comparing Homo sapiens sapiens (mortals) with H. sapiens eldarensis, that is, one variety of orange to another variety of orange as opposed to an apple, so species specific gender names don’t really fly here. As per Darth and Jael, I’m of the self-referential “man” and “woman” school of thought based on definitions that indicate mortals (“firiel”) and even in “mixed company” tend to use JRRT’s tactic, e.g. elf-child, elf-woman, elf-man. That said, there are fine writers – present company included  – who can use elleth and ellon without making me wince at all. As NiRi noted, it really is the quality of writing and story-telling that counts. The phrase “Humans and Elves,” on the other hand, sends me into a fit of apoplectic sputtering. |
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Post by nierielraina on Jul 20, 2009 21:45:08 GMT -6
We don't have to use ellon/elleth or dîr/dîs to accurately describe Elves. Nope! Sure don't! Nor do we HAVE to call them 'men' and 'women'. Nothing wrong with using ellon/elleth or dîr/dîs, I don't think. I think it's a matter of personal preference. I understand the mind set behind both and think both work. For myself, I use a combination of them. Just depends on the situation. LOL! yes, me too. |
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Post by Independence1776 on Jul 21, 2009 21:00:42 GMT -6
The reason I don't use ellon/elleth, or much other Elvish, is that my characters are "speaking" Sindarin, and like Tolkien, I just "translated" it into English. But at this point in my 'verse, there's no mixed company-- they're all Elves. But I capitalize Men when I'm referring to mortals, so that may help. Mixed company will be a whole different ballgame.
Beyond that, as long as people don't order me to use one or the other, I don't really care. But like you two, "humans and Elves" now cause me to say to myself, "But Elves are human!" And then I continue reading, because some of my favorite authors use the phrase. The writing and/or story has to be terrible for me to click back (but then I'm picky about what I read in the first place.)
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) would not be able to produce fertile offspring, e.g., Earendil, Dior and Galador. So more accurately, you’re comparing Homo sapiens sapiens (mortals) with H. sapiens eldarensis, that is, one variety of orange to another variety of orange as opposed to an apple, so species specific gender names don’t really fly here. 
– who can use elleth and ellon without making me wince at all. As NiRi noted, it really is the quality of writing and story-telling that counts. 