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Post by oshun on Sept 30, 2008 18:52:32 GMT -6
Pandemonium and Amy seem to 100% contradict one another. Viking ships with lots of rowers (many I would guess from models I have seen--Roman galleons or Viking flicks based on little to no research) and two or three crew. Clearly there must have been a lot of different types of ships.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 30, 2008 19:34:24 GMT -6
That's it, they're going to Númenor on a CRJ.
I know planes. A Bombardier CRJ200 requires a pilot and copilot, typically has three crew members on board, and can seat up to 50 paying passengers. Many are now equipped with convenient personal seatback movies. On the assumption that Númenor is 1500 miles from Mithlond, the flight would take roughly three hours.
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 30, 2008 19:53:55 GMT -6
That's it, they're going to Númenor on a CRJ. Well, that is canon! Buried somewhere in Tolkien's noodlings on the downfall of Númenor in the HoMe is a reference to aircraft.
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Post by oshun on Sept 30, 2008 20:02:11 GMT -6
Why is it I sometimes get the idea that some of us try to be more internally consistent than Tolkien was himself? I don't think he had a clue of how long it took the Noldor to make the couple legs of their trip using ships from Aqualonde. Or if he did, he kept it to himself, for example.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 30, 2008 20:14:26 GMT -6
Why is it I sometimes get the idea that some of us try to be more internally consistent than Tolkien was himself? I don't think he had a clue of how long it took the Noldor to make the couple legs of their trip using ships from Aqualonde. Or if he did, he kept it to himself, for example. His lack of understanding on the concept of time passage is evident in places. For example, it takes the refugees of Gondolin two years to walk to Avernien. But Tuor and Voronwe make a journey of the same distance in 39 days. And a whole year between the end of the War of Wrath and Maedhros killing himself? A year? Really? I know it doesn't look like much when it's written down on a list of happenings, but when you think about it logically... It took Maedhros a whole year to get that Silmaril from Eonwe and go crazy? Why was Eonwe still in Beleriand a year after the war? Wasn't Beleriand sinking at the time? What is going on here?! Hey! This is my 300th post! Huzzah!
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Post by oshun on Sept 30, 2008 20:26:35 GMT -6
Why is it I sometimes get the idea that some of us try to be more internally consistent than Tolkien was himself? I don't think he had a clue of how long it took the Noldor to make the couple legs of their trip using ships from Aqualonde. Or if he did, he kept it to himself, for example. His lack of understanding on the concept of time passage is evident in places. For example, it takes the refugees of Gondolin two years to walk to Avernien. But Tuor and Voronwe make a journey of the same distance in 39 days. And a whole year between the end of the War of Wrath and Maedhros killing himself? A year? Really? I know it doesn't look like much when it's written down on a list of happenings, but when you think about it logically... It took Maedhros a whole year to get that Silmaril from Eonwe and go crazy? Why was Eonwe still in Beleriand a year after the war? Wasn't Beleriand sinking at the time? What is going on here?! Hey! This is my 300th post! Huzzah!Well, congratulations. That time shit drives me crazy. I have my own special pet peeves related to that. Maedhros hanging for years. (I've read discussions of how Morgoth might have fed him. Oh, please!) And then Fingon diddling around for a couple of years more once he finds out where he is, trying to decide whether to attempt to rescue him or not. And if someone pulls a crazy stunt like Fingon did, it necessarily has it be done on impluse and not after years of careful consideration.
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Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Oct 1, 2008 2:11:10 GMT -6
The weird time stuff, it seems to me, is a legacy of the "legend" genre. Everything is exaggerated. Men are eight feet tall (all of them called "The Tall") and the greatest warrior ever, while women are all the most beautiful maiden who ever lived.
Maybe they could travel by hot-air balloon to Numenor....
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Post by elfscribe on Oct 1, 2008 20:02:35 GMT -6
Hi there Darth, Oshun just told this discussion was going on and I thought I'd grab an oar and row out to you. About sailing ship times - I researched that for Osse's Gift in order to figure out how long it would take to sail from Umbar to Lindon. Let's see. I found this site: www.evgschool.org/Columbus's%20 Sailing%20Ships.htm that said Columbus' ships made about 150 miles per day, although the source says 100 miles in a day is more average. Vikings ships averaged about 5-6 miles per hour, so that would be 144 miles in a 24 hr. period. Based on this info, I think I estimated 7 days to sail from Umbar to the Grey Havens. That would also mean between 10-15 days to Numenor, assuming nothing untoward happened.
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Post by oshun on Oct 1, 2008 20:09:22 GMT -6
Oh, good. Encouraging sharing of information.
Hey, you all are going to make me feel bad that I just pulled a number out of my hat for my characters' trip from Grey Havens to Aman (three weeks I picked, with no idea of distance or what type of ship they were on). Should it make me feel any better than I have spent days picking the color of a horse based upon serious research and consultation?
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Post by elfscribe on Oct 1, 2008 20:13:35 GMT -6
Why is it I sometimes get the idea that some of us try to be more internally consistent than Tolkien was himself? I don't think he had a clue of how long it took the Noldor to make the couple legs of their trip using ships from Aqualonde. Or if he did, he kept it to himself. Hiya Oshun - I think Tolkien would have been amazed and appalled at how carefully people have crawled over his creation. I'm not surprised given the scope of it that he's got internal inconsistencies. If I tried creating an original world from scratch I'm sure it would have all kinds of inconsistencies. It seems he thought of the Silm as existing in a mythological realm in which lots of these details - like how long it took to travel from one place to another or how long Maedhros hung from Angband had no meaning and in fact were exaggerated in proper myth fashion. So, I'm for a relatively free hand in interpreting some of these things. I mean, I have a real hard time buying that for a good part of the First Age there was no sun, only the light from the trees. Huh? So, I have no problem with your changing the canon to fit what would make for a plausible story.
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Post by oshun on Oct 1, 2008 20:28:44 GMT -6
I agree with you entirely in principal. Actually, you are meshing together the last part of the Years of the Trees and the First Age. The First Age begins with the rising of the Sun, but, hey, whatever. Don't mean to annoy you! Please forgive me! I guess I like to make a puzzle out of building what is, for all practical intents and purposes, original fiction around the world he made. I fell in love with his Fingon and Maedhros, but I wanted to put them in a story of my own. But to just not worry at all about the canon surrounding them is like a violation of my own rules. But then, I am not canon-accurate phobic by any means. There are ridiculous things that one has to assume were intended as myth or distortion or a case of he just didn't bother to make them match. The scary part is there are a whole bunch of people out there who write deadly dull stories, which they believe are totally canon accurate (they usually are not even close, but that is another discussion). Actually, Darth started a separate thread for this exact discussion (canon weirdnesses--named "The Tall" ( lizardcouncil.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=tolkien&thread=271&page=1 ) . I should have posted this there.
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Post by pandemonium on Oct 1, 2008 20:46:09 GMT -6
I mean, I have a real hard time buying that for a good part of the First Age there was no sun, only the light from the trees. Huh? So, I have no problem with your changing the canon to fit what would make for a plausible story. Have you read JRRT's essays on the Sun and the Moon in the History of Middle-earth ("Myths Transformed" in Morgoth's Ring, I believe). In these later writings, JRRT rejected the flat earth concept and also (vehemently) did not like the idea that Middle-earth was left in darkness and that Yavanna put all the plants and animals to sleep. I love the fact that he attempted to bring astronomical credibility to his creation. His explanation for the need of the Trees (the "domes of Varda" with the fake stars stuck up in them) has an almost science fiction-ish feel to it. That said, I'm perfectly happy to read fics that go with the mythology as described in The Silmarillion.
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