|
|
Post by Darth Fingon on Oct 21, 2008 10:07:08 GMT -6
Today's topic of debate is:
Elwing. What the hell?
|
|
|
|
Post by jael on Oct 22, 2008 16:10:46 GMT -6
As in, she found the Silmaril more important than the welfare of her children?
It would be interesting to try to come up with a compelling psychological reason for that. Perhaps she believed that with herself and the Silmaril gone the sons of Feanor would give up and leave everyone else alone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Oct 22, 2008 19:01:56 GMT -6
I think that a writer should feel free to invent whatever s/he wants about the story. Tolkien, as usual, mentions no motivation. Could be that Elwing was a raving self-destructive drama queen; could be the legend tidies up a much more complicated reality.
|
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Oct 24, 2008 17:56:21 GMT -6
My position on her is stronger than it is on most characters. Only a man could write a woman abandoning her children to almost certain death (at least as she saw it) and then expect expect women to be sympathetic to that character. I suppose it is possible, to make her somewhat sympathetic to me, but she would have to be presented as either really damaged, completely batshit crazy, or certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Maglor and Maedhros would take good care of them... Some people have proposed to me the idea about the Silmaril's magical power of controlling people--that could be done, I guess, it just doesn't appeal to me. Or a lot of blah, blah, blah about different mores in different societies, which didn't really float my boat in this case either. There is always an exception I suppose if it is well enough done.
|
|
|
|
Post by elfscribe on Oct 24, 2008 20:53:08 GMT -6
Enjoyed your badfic Oshun. It brings out the absurdity of Elwing's actions. As you point out that's certainly an example of the stuff in the Silm that if one is trying to write the character as a real person with a detailed narrative you're hard put to it to have her really act the way she does, unless as you say, she's nuts and doesn't mind leaving her kids with the enemy. I imagine Tolkien wasn't concerned with that, he was creating a myth and in myths characters often don't act like real people, instead they are archetypes. Normal people don't turn into birds either. I expect Tolkien was more concerned with how to get that blasted Silmaril up in the sky as a star. In the same way that I think the stories of how Maedhros and Maglor dealt with the Silmarils really are to provide the symmetry of the stones going back to the elements - fire and water as opposed to making sense. I mean when I listen to Maglor's arguments, "Crap Maedhros why don't we just bag this oath business, go back and throw ourselves on the Valar's mercy. It can't be worse than what's already happened." Well that makes a hell of a lot of sense and I have to wonder at 1)Maedhros' sanity in deciding, "No, we stick with that oath come hell or high water" and then 2) Maglor saying, "Okay, whatever you want big bro. I mean, I really hate this and all, but let's kill a few more innocent elves, shall we?" Well, heh, wtf - you know.
|
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Oct 24, 2008 21:41:11 GMT -6
Of course, that is the prospective from which I write. I think there is less of problem in doing it (plenty of writers do it and get away with it--I'm thinking Darth and Pandemonium and others), than going around blowing off one's mouth about it, the way I do. Oh, well, whatever. I can't keep writing this stuff forever, my problem is that I actually really, really enjoy writing stories based on these characters and I am self-indulgent.
I got such satisfication out of writing that silly badfic. I'm should do that from now on instead arguing about plausibility of canon with people who completely disagree with how I like to use it. I'll just write a badfic.
|
|
|
|
Post by pandemonium on Oct 25, 2008 9:05:40 GMT -6
Wait. What do I get away with?  I'm in the Gandalf's Apprentice camp here. The blank subtext beneath Elwing's actions -- and what amounts to a reward from the Valar for such -- is ripe for all sorts of interpretation. Let's see...here are Elrond and Elros with a largely absent father (hey, ol' Eärendil was constantly off at sea) and a mother who might have significant psychological issues from her own earlier experiences -- witnessing the mayhem in Doriath, being of "mixed blood." As for the Silmarils, I don't buy into the "mind control" bit either, but I get the impression they inspire greed and thus rash decision-making. Elfscribe raises a good point on the use of archetype for the sake of myth, but in Elwing's case, it's a bleak one. The abandonment of her kids as well as the fate of her brothers echo the tale of Hansel and Gretel. Things turn out better for Elwing who was rewarded with that chi chi beach front property and all those lessons in hang gliding as opposed to H&G's stepmother's fate. JRRT wrote this about Eärendil in Parma Eldalamberon 17 (p19): Eärendil is a person in all cases: he was the mariner and steerer of the Evening Star. The expression I 392 Eärendil's Star (I 392 refers to The Fellowship of the Ring, page 392 - pandemonium) is thus correct.To be mythologically precise, as the song I 246-9 relates, the Evening (or Morning ) Star is a transparent boat steered by E. allowing the light of the Silmaril to be seen. The expression Eärendil for E. Star I 380 is inaccurate but natural mythologically: like using Apollo for the Sun or Diana for the Moon.This strikes me as yet one more instance of JRRT wanting his green sun reality and eating his mythological cake, too. Elwing's story seems to be part of the same. A romantic and tragic faerie tale to get the Silmaril to Valinor, yet connected to a real flesh-and-blood human (albeit with some funky genetics from his Maiarin great-great- grandma no doubt) who lives and interacts with many others in Middle-earth. So I think it's fair to raise a critical maternal eyebrow at how JRRT* wrote Elwing and her actions. *If I hadn't already been jaded with regard to some of JRRT's views that make their way into his mythology, the entry on Edith Bratt, his wife, in Hammond & Scull's JRRT Companion and Guide did me in. |
|
|
|
Post by Moreth on Oct 25, 2008 10:04:29 GMT -6
That must win prizes for the most accurate description of a Silmaril ever!
Aside from dumping the kids (and even I am somewhat surprised at that kind of behaviour!), when they reach Aman, she isn't even any use - just hangs around on the beach complaining that it's too cold out there...
Character most in need of a good slapping, in my opinion ;P
Go on - someone make me feel even a little bit sympathetic towards her...
|
|
|
|
Post by elfscribe on Oct 25, 2008 10:42:42 GMT -6
I got such satisfication out of writing that silly badfic. I'm should do that from now on instead arguing about plausibility of canon with people who completely disagree with how I like to use it. I'll just write a badfic. You know I love the way you've written the Feanoreans. You've brought them to life for me with all the politics of a large family. I believe in those characters and what they do makes sense. I don't know who's arguing with you about canon but they're silly. We are all reinterpreting Tolkien's world. I think that's one of the amazing tributes to his genius in creating such a rich world to explore. Your fic made me laugh. I'd love to see more of 'em. |
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Oct 25, 2008 10:57:50 GMT -6
What do I get away with? I should restate that--you and Darth are more mature about it than I am. You write what you want and don't let the critics rile you up about choices. I tend to forget that writing it well is the best revenge. I should concentrate more on sentence structure and less on debate.
Elwing: Character most in need of a good slapping, in my opinion ;P Poor Luthien gets more heat from me at times, but actually probably just had a really bad PR person.
Your fic made me laugh. I'd love to see more of 'em.
That is my resolution: no more ponderous debates about interpretation of canon and more badfics to get my points across.
|
|
raksha
Pretty Good Sneech 
Posts: 134
|
Post by raksha on Mar 19, 2009 15:58:51 GMT -6
I've been working (on and off) on an Elwing fic; and I can only conclude that she must have thought that the boys were dead. I cannot see how she could have abandoned them, knowing they were still alive and in enemy hands. I do follow canon to a certain degree; and respect Tolkien's wishes for his characters; and Tolkien treats her as a heroine, not a villain or even a tragic anti-hero type (i.e. the Feanorians, or Denethor in LOTR). I've never been a mother, but I love my dogs, and I imagine that a mother would have a much stronger love for her kids than that, and I just can't see Elwing knowingly abandoning her living children to the hands of their conquerors (especially since she would remember what Maedhros & Co. did to her father and mother and brothers).
Now I have a perfectly good excuse for her and Earendil not high-tailing it back after she brings the Silmaril to Vingilot (at that point they both know that their sons were taken captive); but that will wait for my finishing the fic; which I hope to do sometiime in the next century... 
Of course, when Tolkien first thought up the story of Earendil and Elwing, i.e. Elwing jumping out of the tower and being transformed, bearing the Silmaril to Earendil, I don't think the kiddies were in the picture at all. He hadn't even conceived of Elros and Elrond. Later, he tacked them into the great story as the young children of Earendil and Elwing; but obviously never fleshed out the story enough to make a mother's seeming abandonment of her sons reasonable.
The line in the Silmarillion about Maglor cherishing the children and great love growing between them is possibly my favorite bit in the entire Silm - it's so dramatically rich. I still wrestle with the canon issues, since Tolkien implied later that Maglor abandoned the kids in a cave for Gil-galad's Elves to find (Letter #211) - and I hope that the line about Maglor cherishing the kids didn't come solely from the mind of Christopher Tolkien.
|
|
Rhapsody
Pretty Good Sneech
Bard of Silver Dreams
Posts: 161
|
Post by Rhapsody on Mar 25, 2009 4:34:45 GMT -6
Nothing is as easy or straightforward with canon as it seems, as you mention Raksha, when you do follow the notes in HOME, the different versions of a part in the Silm, what was he thinking the moment Elwing dove of that tower. Even without children, still one has to question their motives (as in Earendil & Elwing) to bring a jewel there while by then 4 very serious & oathdriven Fëanorians will do anything to get their hands on them. I mean those four already were involved in two kinslayings, then you also know what risk you will bring down on those living around you. If you are the ruling lord and lady of a region, one also has to consider or at least assume responsibility for those who look to you for leadership: children included. Elwing could have assumed based on the uncertain fate of her brothers Eluréd and Elurín, that her children would face the same end, but then she must never heard about Maedhros repenting the deed of Celegorm's servants and tried to find them and she also fled the scene of Doriath as a child, also quite not caring for her family but that pesky jewel seemed even more important. It still leaves me rather doubtful that when she had a shot of redemption (her children's lives), she still opts for the easy way out (even after a correspondence with Maedhros, she knew what was coming), leaving even her own people to fend for their own. That's not very classy if you ask me.
|
|
