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Post by surgicalsteel on Aug 15, 2009 15:12:56 GMT -6
Not that I plan to write about it, but aren't some congenital birth defects the result of environmental causes (Thalidomide/shot by an orc arrow, horrific emotional trauma) rather than genetic? Exactly. Fetal alcohol syndrome's another example, spina bifida's related to nutritional deficiencies, tetracycline causes odd things in bone development, etc. Or even birth related trauma - odd things can happen when the head comes out and the shoulder doesn't want to (causing brachial plexus disruption).
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Post by pandemonium on Aug 16, 2009 7:46:48 GMT -6
Re: Jael -- my scientifictitious postulates are still as sketchy as JRRT's if better informed by modern science.
Yep, Elves can certainly be poisoned (cf. Aredhel). In the Pandë!verse, there are poisons and toxins that are fatal to both Men and Elves (re: Sámaril's comment that he wants to avoid mixing acid with cyanide salts ==> HCN gas), but some that the elven hepatic enzymes (cytochrome P450s or "CYPs") detoxify far more efficiently and rapidly than the mortal equivalents. I used this scientifictitious concept in "Risk Assessment" in which Mélamírë yammers (pedantically) about the inherent toxicity of the grain that is used to make lembas. Anyway, the developing elvish fetus would potentially be protected against teratogenic effects of things equivalent to thalidomide, tetracycline (as Steel points out), etc.
However, for trauma like the orc-arrow (resulting in injury to a developing bone) or brachial plexus disruption during delivery? That's an excellent question. I would be inclined to say that in these cases where frank injury has occurred, then a deformed elven-baby will be delivered. The consequences of that are interesting to consider. One would assume compassion and potential healing (even if imperfect), but if one was daring, there's a plot bunny that would make the controversy of Children of Lindórinand look like pablum. [Hint: What did the ancient and learned Greeks do with their deformed babies?]
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Post by pandemonium on Aug 16, 2009 7:59:40 GMT -6
All righty then! I have been given permission to study its different biology and fill in the gaps so here we go. Excellent points, and very well written, even for us non-scientific nutzes. You need a t-shirt that reads: " FEAR ME when I'm awake and sober, at least." ;D *grinning, ducking & running like hell*We should all write so well, Pandë! Heh! Thanks, muchly Aeärwen! Long before I entered fan fic, I pursued two forms of scientific writing: that for peer-reviewed professional journals (and contributions to my sections of patents) and explaining scientific concepts to non-scientists - whether at my kids' schools or on the 'Net in different venues. The latter led me to blogging about science and the invitation to write for Science Blogs. That was fun for a while until the atmosphere of the whole culture wars thing became very wearing. It was about that time that my interest in Tolkien (long dormant) became reactivated. Anyway, I enjoy trying to communicate science to others. Here, I have used a lot of jargon. In my fic, I try to communicate possible "science of Middle-earth" scenarios, but there try to avoid jargon if I can. Or I wave my wizard's wand and say the "photosynthesis" and "neurotransmitters" are spoken in Valarin. At some point, I hope to write a more authoritative (as authoritative as speculative science fiction can be ) essay or series of essays on my postulates of elven biology, taken from extrapolation of what we know now (and what Tolkien did not know then) about aging, physiology, etc. and what JRRT wrote about the elves. Given what Jael said about the whole "elven perfection" thing among a certain school of thought, yes, I should write this. ETA: My dark muse opines, "Pandë, you really must have that T-shirt. I'll even let you use my Eye logo on it."
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Post by surgicalsteel on Aug 16, 2009 8:30:33 GMT -6
At some point, I hope to write a more authoritative (as authoritative as speculative science fiction can be ) essay or series of essays on my postulates of elven biology, taken from extrapolation of what we know now (and what Tolkien did not know then) about aging, physiology, etc. and what JRRT wrote about the elves. Given what Jael said about the whole "elven perfection" thing among a certain school of thought, yes, I should write this. Ooooo! I'll read that!
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Post by Independence1776 on Aug 16, 2009 13:07:44 GMT -6
I'd read it, too, Pandë!
I will resist that plot bunny. I will. (Besides, my thralls story touches on similar themes: treatment of the people disabled in the wars and what LACE says what they're supposed to do.)
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Post by jael on Aug 16, 2009 14:50:50 GMT -6
Does the L&C say anything at all about the disabled and how they ought to be treated? I've always wondered what would happen to an elf with a missing limb.
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Post by nierielraina on Aug 16, 2009 16:32:37 GMT -6
Does the L&C say anything at all about the disabled and how they ought to be treated? I've always wondered what would happen to an elf with a missing limb. Not that I'm aware of, but we do know Maedhros went on and became even a better swordsman with his left hand than he had been with his right. But maybe they would be treated differently if they lost a limb in a battle (it had to have happened!) as opposed to being born without one?
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Post by Independence1776 on Aug 16, 2009 20:23:43 GMT -6
Does the L&C say anything at all about the disabled and how they ought to be treated? I've always wondered what would happen to an elf with a missing limb. It says on page 218, "If the hrondo [>hröa] be destroyed, or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fëa to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fëa departs from it, and its function being at an end its coherance is unloosed, and it returns again to the general hrón [>orma] of Arda." So it reads to be me as if the severly injured and disabled are expected to die. And I'm really bothered by that. There's no implication of a choice to do otherwise. (I do think upwards of 90% choose to die and eventually be reborn, but there's always those who don't want to, for whatever reason.) Maedhros could have been the major exception because a) he's a son of Fëanor and they tend not to obey well and b) he had the Oath to be concerned about. He could (obviously) still fight. Death would have been like giving up as well as risking the Everlasting Darkness. And there could very well be different treatments for battle injuries (glorious fighting against the dark forces or whatnot) versus what looks like Morgoth's taint.
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Post by fireworks on Aug 25, 2009 11:11:36 GMT -6
"It's really a wonder my generation isn't all mentally challenged."
I know!
I'm very new--sorry to be jumping in!-- This is a very interesting discussion. I just wanted to add a little bit more -perhaps- canonical base for discomfort during pregnancy: I can't remember where I read this, but somewhere in the canon it says that Elves rarely reproduced during war because the presence of the father was very important during pregnancy, I think to give strength to the mother's fea. That makes me think that there must be some sort of toil involved, either of the physical, emotional, mental kind, or all of them, as is the case with human pregnancy.
Good luck with your story!
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Post by fireworks on Aug 25, 2009 11:44:33 GMT -6
Thinking about this, I think that fragment can be found in Laws and Customs of the Eldar. I have read it quoted on forums and do not have book/page number, but I think that is where you can find that info.
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Post by esteliel on Aug 25, 2009 12:07:02 GMT -6
Here are the exact quotes, both from LACE: "Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. " and a little later: "Yet it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievous thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted. For which reason the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could." I just wanted to add that this has been a fascinating discussion to read, as it is a topic I'm very much interested in - I might write mpreg, but I try to base it on what Tolkien wrote about female pregnancies. But I guess hermaphroditism/intersexuality among Tolkien's elves is a topic for another day.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Aug 25, 2009 12:55:52 GMT -6
Here areBut I guess hermaphroditism/intersexuality among Tolkien's elves is a topic for another day. Scroll down to the bottom of this article... I've never had hermaphrodites in my stories, but I have had Fingolfin acknowledge the existence of intersexed Vanyar.
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