raksha
Pretty Good Sneech
Posts: 134
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Post by raksha on Jun 5, 2010 23:06:26 GMT -6
Tolkien can claim what he likes. As a theologian, I say such claims are mistaken. The concept of God, the concept of salvation, the morality, the concept of the ultimate Good, the vision for the future, the concept of the afterlife in Tolkien's work are all very clearly not Christian. Yes, and it evidently caused him a lot of anguish. His earlier tales have so much more brio! Then he tried to make them holier as the years passed. Thus Galadriel goes from rather interesting ambitious lady who wants to play with the big dogs, to stand-in for the Virgin Mary (of whom, may I say, a worse model for women never existed). I'll take LOTR, as a work of fiction, over any of the Silmarillion stories, because it is simply more complete. I do like what we know of the Silm-era Galadriel better than the Galadriel of LOTR, since I found the latter boring and pompous, but not (at least to me) because of any similarity to Mary of Nazareth - I personally don't see it. (perhaps because I'm not Christian)
As for Christian themes in LOTR, there are a few, but Tolkien doesn't beat his readers over the head with them; and they flow in and out of the overall plot fairly seamlessly, so I had no problem. I'm not sure that it's possible for any author to totally keep his/her personal beliefs out of his/her fiction (or non-fiction, depending what sort)....
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Post by erulisse on Jun 7, 2010 5:49:20 GMT -6
What he did do was create a physical world, rich in detail and peopled with a variety of entities, that pulls all of us into it using different baits... Are...are you saying...that Tolkien...was a master-baiter? Absolutely...and you can choose your own spelling ;D - Erulisse (one L)
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Post by oshun on Jun 7, 2010 16:51:21 GMT -6
<i>I have to say that I wish I could "not see" the Catholic morality in Tolkien's world. Aside from his impossibly hung-up ideas about sex, Middle-earth has "fallen world" stamped all over it. All physical being is corrupted by Morgoth, etc. etc. As a hard-core materialist with a perspective of historical optimism, I HATE that stuff. Every time Galadriel sighs about "the long defeat," I want to tear her up into little pieces. Therefore I am happy to admit that there is plenty of blasphemy in my fanfic.</i>
I missed this. Good points. No wonder you don't enjoy The Silmarillion. When it comes to punishing the rebels, Tolkien rather resorted to overkill with the Noldor. Oh, well, I just try to make it seem like they had a little fun living out that "long defeat." I write Silm fics because despite the paucity of dialogue or interior monologue which people often associate with characterization, I find the Silmarillion contains the highest number of characters I find sympathetic on some level.
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Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Jun 7, 2010 21:08:39 GMT -6
Regarding the Silmarillion: actually I just finished listening to parts of it on audiobook. It's great to listen to! The quality of the language is much more apparent that way as opposed to reading. It SOUNDS like an epic.
But yeah, you're right. I don't find much in there to hang my own tales on, except for Blue Book kind of stuff.
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Post by erulisse on Jun 8, 2010 5:14:19 GMT -6
Sorry, you two, but I love the SIL. Of all of JRRT's books, it is by far my favorite. I suppose because Feanor is such a huge character and because I love the formation of the world, etc. But it is the differences in outlook and personality that makes all of the fan fic realm of such interest to me. I could never think of the twists of plot I've had the joy of reading and I'm so very grateful that someone else had the imagination and skill to share their plots with others. - Erulisse (one L) Happily going on holiday for the rest of the week - oh happy, happy me
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Post by oshun on Jun 8, 2010 9:54:13 GMT -6
Sorry, you two, but I love the SIL. Of all of JRRT's books, it is by far my favorite. I suppose because Feanor is such a huge character and because I love the formation of the world, etc. But it is the differences in outlook and personality that makes all of the fan fic realm of such interest to me. I could never think of the twists of plot I've had the joy of reading and I'm so very grateful that someone else had the imagination and skill to share their plots with others. - Erulisse (one L) Happily going on holiday for the rest of the week - oh happy, happy me Trust me, erulisse, I utterly adore The Silmarillion. When I do get around to writing anything based on LotR, which is rarely, it is choked with Silm references. It's Tolkien I have the problem with (just kidding, sort of!). He must have done something right. I think about Silmarillion characters and themes falling asleep at night. He pressed a lot of buttons--I think therein lies his genuis--even though I draw at times the opposite conclusions from what he might have hoped.
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Post by oshun on Jun 8, 2010 9:58:39 GMT -6
Regarding the Silmarillion: actually I just finished listening to parts of it on audiobook. It's great to listen to! The quality of the language is much more apparent that way as opposed to reading. It SOUNDS like an epic. But yeah, you're right. I don't find much in there to hang my own tales on, except for Blue Book kind of stuff. I ought to get the audiobook. I've not listened to one in years. Before he died my father was losing his sight and I listened to a lot of them when I visited him (he had great taste in literature!) and I adored the experience. I bet the Silm would work really well in that format. Probably even make me listen to the first parts, which I can barely crawl through most of the time.
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Post by elfscribe on Jun 9, 2010 14:12:09 GMT -6
Regarding the Silmarillion: actually I just finished listening to parts of it on audiobook. It's great to listen to! The quality of the language is much more apparent that way as opposed to reading. It SOUNDS like an epic. I agree. I've been a LOTR fan since I first read the trilogy at age 13, but I had trouble reading the Silm. (I think it was trying to get through the all-singing, all-dancing multi-monikered Ainulindale.) I became interested trying it again after I started writing LOTR fanfic and read a number of Silmfics that I really enjoyed. But like you, instead of trying to read it this time, I listened to it on CD in my car and that's when I really fell in love with it. Just as you say, the language is sonorous and beautiful to listen to. It seems meant to be spoken. And that would be appropriate, wouldn't it?
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Post by russandol on Jun 9, 2010 14:40:42 GMT -6
I've been a LOTR fan since I first read the trilogy at age 13, but I had trouble reading the Silm. (I think it was trying to get through the rather pompous all-singing, all-dancing Ainulindale with all those names.) Like you, I had trouble with the Silmarillion the first time. But the second time a few years later I saw the whole tapestry of legends all spread out before me, and I stopped getting confused with the Fin- names and the hundred types of Elves. Then LOTR became second best, only one of many other adventures/legends. Even the pompous style clicked into place, because these were ancient myths, and stories of the gods themselves. *** stops rambling *** Imagine then my delight at discovering Silmfic, shaping all those characters and filling all those gaps! ;D
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Morthoron
New Sneech
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Posts: 54
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Post by Morthoron on Jun 9, 2010 15:40:04 GMT -6
To me, the heightened, almost biblical prose of the Silmarillion enhances the entire story of Middle-earth. The phrasing and word choice in the Ainulindale is perhaps the height of literary accomplishment in all of Tolkien's corpus, and certainly is beyond anything in the modern fantasy genre. For those who can appreciate the King James version of the bible from a literary standpoint, one can definitely see parallels in the first section of the Silm, and I would suggest that Tolkien's awesome vision of creation is far more compelling than Genesis.
In addition, the archaic rendition of the Silm acts a bridge from the formal to the familiar. We see the 1st Age as from afar, with the impossibly overmatched but splendid warrior demi-gods fighting against ageless evil, and then fast forward in LotR to the last vestiges of Faery, slowly fading before the rising tide of mortal man, and the valor of Old meets the vulgar of New. Tolkien retells an age-old tale, really, of Avalon or Hy-Brasil finally unattainable save for the last ship and the final few fated to take that holy voyage to the West.
*sniffs*
My, this coffee is delicious.
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Post by russandol on Jun 9, 2010 15:58:41 GMT -6
My, this coffee is delicious. ***snorts ***
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Post by pandemonium on Jun 9, 2010 16:50:23 GMT -6
Even the pompous style clicked into place, because these were ancient myths, and stories of the gods themselves. ¡Exactamente! I didn't have any trouble with The Silmarillion when I first read it (1977, hot off the presses sort of), but I think that might have been due to my familiarity with and adulation of Graeco-Roman and later Celtic and to a lesser extent Norse mythology. So I felt like I was on familiar turf with The Silm. It did take at least 2 re-read's before I got all the "Fin-" folk straight. However, reading it again after an almost 20 year hiatus made me see red. Not because of its epic style, which was still grand with that lofty mythic remoteness, but due to some key themes that I took as a nearly personal affront. I also love The Lord of the Rings for the same reasons that Raksha cites. It works well as a complete work of fiction. Tolkien may not be the best novelist I have encountered, but he was a fabulous storyteller and world-builder par excellence even if I have to hold my nose when reading some of his opinions that creep into his work (to paraphrase something Gandalf's Apprentice said to me not long after our fateful encounter about 3 years ago). For ficcish indulgence I prefer The Silmarillion and its satellites because these are, character-wise especially, more of a tabula rasa. I have to say that parts of The History of Middle-earth ensorcel me these days. The Lay of Leithian beats the Silmarillion version of the tale hands-down.
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