Elven Cavalry

[encairion]

I've been wondering how prevalent cavalry was in elvish combat. There are few mentions of elves fighting in mass on horses. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? How common was elven cavalry, especially in the great battles of the First Age? And when elves fought on horse back, in open large scale battles, were they more likely to ride bare back or use saddle and bridle?

Any thoughts?

[aearwen]

IF there were a cavalry, I'd imagine they'd need some sort of tack with at least stirrups in order to keep their seats while wielding a weapon. As for reins, I'm not so sure of that.

But you're right - Tolkien doesn't mention much in the way of cavalry when it comes to warfare. The Rohirrim and the Orcs (on wargs) were really the only regularly mounted warriors... that I can remember.

(And I suffer from CRS, so don't quote me...)

*CRS=Can't Remember Squat*

[randy]

Yes, they'd need reins. It is possible to guide a horse with knee pressure and shifts of weight, but just think about an elf fighting from horseback and twistung the body while wielding a weapon. Unless they're controlling their mounts with mental telepathy, the poor horse would be utterly confused.

Bottom line, Glorfindel was using a bridle when he met Aragorn and the hobbits outside of Rivendell. I can't see First Age Noldor riding into battle tackless.

[encairion]

Thanks for the comments

Yes, I am beginning to think they would need a bridle defiantly. I am thinking about how Native American's rode their houses. They could ride bareback, but they did need a bridle, for more control. I do think elves have a strong connection with horses, and for normal everyday riding probably could have done without the bridle, but in a battle I think the terror and madness might have overwhelmed the usual connections elves had with horses.

Aearwen: The Rohirrim and the Orcs (on wargs) were really the only regularly mounted warriors

I cannot think of any other large scale mounted warriors either. I don't know if Tolkien simply didn't mention elven cavalry, and they still existed in that background, or if he didn't in fact mean for elves to have cavalry? Well, I guess its just one more thing left to our own interpretation

[randy]

I'm told by people who know such things that while the Native Americans could ride without any kind of tack, they made use of whatever tack they could get their hands on. The ability to stand in stirrups makes it much easier to shoot a bow from horseback.

Tolkien objected to the use of cruel bits on horses, but as with Glorfindel's example, a bitless headstall and a saddle are not an imposition on a horse.

[crowdaughter]

Jun 15, 2010 20:09:44 GMT -6 encairion said:

I've been wondering how prevalent cavalry was in elvish combat. There are few mentions of elves fighting in mass on horses. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? How common was elven cavalry, especially in the great battles of the First Age?

Well, the Silm has a mention of Fingon fighting Glaurung with archers on horsebacks and a ring of swift riders, when Glauring first showed himself (Silmarillion, p. 132). So they had kind of a cavalry, although more like bowmen on horseback, apparently. Otherwise, I don't know.

And I always imagined the Noldor riding with saddle and brittle, but other than Glorfindel I have no example to ground it on.

[oshun]

Jun 16, 2010 16:14:20 GMT -6 crowdaughter said:

Jun 15, 2010 20:09:44 GMT -6 encairion said:

I've been wondering how prevalent cavalry was in elvish combat. There are few mentions of elves fighting in mass on horses. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? How common was elven cavalry, especially in the great battles of the First Age?

Well, the Silm has a mention of Fingon fighting Glaurung with archers on horsebacks and a ring of swift riders, when Glauring first showed himself (Silmarillion, p. 132). So they had kind of a cavalry, although more like bowmen on horseback, apparently. Otherwise, I don't know.

And I always imagined the Noldor riding with saddle and brittle, but other than Glorfindel I have no example to ground it on.

I agree. It would be pretty hard to fight on a horse without a saddle and a bridle.

Meanwhile, Tolkien was pretty defensive about the subject. In his Letters the subject is addressed in response to this question: "Miss Beare: 'Question 1': Why (in the first edition, I. 221) is Glorfindel's horse described as having a 'bridle and bit' when Elves ride without bit, bridle or saddle?"

He responded:

"Question 1. I could, I suppose, answer: 'a trick-cyclist can ride a bicycle with handle-bars!' But actually bridle was casually and carelessly used for what I suppose should have been called a headstall.1 Or rather, since bit was added (1221) long ago (Chapter 112 was written very early) I had not considered the natural ways of elves with animals. Glorfindel's horse would have an ornamental headstall, carrying a plume, and with the straps studded with jewels and small bells; but Glor. would certainly not use a bit. I will change bridle and bit to headstall."

Oh, please. The green sun isn't working for me here. My elves are using pretty ordinary tack. Maybe elves are super terrific with animals and their horses are extraordinarily well-behaved or even communicate with their masters via Osanwe-Kenta. But for everyday usage, especially in a battle situation, I think my Noldorin characters would use tack.

I don't call myself a canon flaunter for nothing!

On the other hand I did write a pretty and sentimental Magic Horse trick scene in my LotR novel The Princess and the Horse Lord in the chapter, "Éomer and The Mearas." So I guess I do what I like when I like it and ignore all that stuff when I don't.

Also, parenthetically, when I wanted to understand about Fingon's horse archers and the baby dragon, I did not limit myself to Tolkien to try to understand the scene as it is described, but did research on horse archery throughout the centuries of real world history.

[lalaith]

Don't forget Fingolfin riding hell for leather on Rochallor to kick some Morgoth ass. He was a one-Elf cavalry!

[oshun]

Jun 16, 2010 17:40:32 GMT -6 lalaith said:

Don't forget Fingolfin riding hell for leather on Rochallor to kick some Morgoth ass. He was a one-Elf cavalry!

Excellent point!

[russandol]

Check this...

"Fingolfin and Fingon his son held Hithlum, and the most part of Fingolfin's folk dwelt in Mithrim about the shores of the great lake; to Fingon was assigned Dor-lómin, that lay to the west of the Mountains of Mithrim. But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar."

and this:

"Between the arms of Gelion was the ward of Maglor, and here in one place the hills failed altogether: there it was that the Orcs came into East Beleriand before the Third Battle. Therefore the Noldor held strength of cavalry in the plains at that place; and the people of Caranthir fortified the mountains to the east of Maglor's Gap. "

Both quotes from "Of Beleriand and Its Realms"

[encairion]

Russandol: those are some great meaty quotes! I guess that answers the question of cavalry in the positive defiantly It was interesting to note it was Maedhros who gave many horses to Fingolfin's forces, of course this makes sense since horses wouldn't have survived the ice, but its also one more very diplomatic and far sighted act of Maedhors.


Oshun: Also, parenthetically, when I wanted to understand about Fingon's horse archers and the baby dragon, I did not limit myself to Tolkien to try to understand the scene as it is described, but did research on horse archery throughout the centuries of real world history.


Outside research is so much fun! I don't think there's one thing pathetic about it, I love not only researching historical stuff, and every day stuff like horse bridles (well not every day for most of us now) but I also love researching different real world cultures and bringing bits and pieces of them into my writing of Middle-Earth cultures.

[russandol]

Jun 16, 2010 23:21:41 GMT -6 encairion said:

Russandol: those are some great meaty quotes! I guess that answers the question of cavalry in the positive defiantly

Glad to have found a definitive answer. I had built up this image of great armies on horseback. Somehow I could not see the Elves just marching to battle, given the vastness of Beleriand.

With or without tack is another matter, I found nothing about it in the Silm or HoME. Having shot many arrows (on foot!) and being a mediocre rider, I am certain that I would welcome something to steady myself while lifting the bow with both hands, or I would break my neck in the inevitable fall. Even rope stirrups would be better than nothing.

If I ever try horse archery (would love to!) I'll let you know the results of the experiment, even if they would be meaningless because, as you may have guessed already, I am not an Elf!! ;D