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Post by elfscribe on Aug 8, 2010 15:50:21 GMT -6
Well, I did finish Swordspoint this weekend. It was an engaging read, but not quite what I expected. Ellen Kushner has a really unique writing style. By far my favorite part of the book was the piece on Alec's dying days found at the end of the book. I felt like it was some of the best writing in the book, and I loved the way that the reader was given insight to the end of the story for one of the main characters. I agree with you the Death of the Duke is my favorite piece in the collection. Made me cry and I don't do that easily. Definitely a gorgeous bit of writing. I would be quite happy if I could achieve something like that. Swordspoint is Kushner's first novel and I found some things a bit uneven in it, but enjoyed her world and characters immensely. I like the fact that many times she hints at backstory but doesn't trot it out for us. So glad you enjoyed The Persian Boy. ;D It is an astonishing book. Mary Renault is a wonderful writer. This whole bit really did it for me, the moment that Bagoas realizes he is in love with Alexander and it breaks his entire world open: "The living chick in the shell has known no other world. Through the wall comes a whiteness, but he does not know it is light. Yet he taps at the white wall, not knowing why. Lightning strikes his heart; the shell breaks open. I thought, There goes my lord, whom I was born to follow. " |
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sanna
Councillor 
Eternal Bosom of Hot Love
Posts: 189
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Post by sanna on Aug 9, 2010 6:56:06 GMT -6
Sanna, what is that biography of Queen Elizabeth that you were talking about? Was it amazing? (I've got The Good Wife on order. I can't wait for it to arrive!) It's Queen Elizabeth by J.E. Neale. Don't know about amazing, I guess it states the same facts than any other biography of her. The Good Wife, however, is made of win. |
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Post by kymahalei on Aug 10, 2010 9:10:02 GMT -6
So glad you enjoyed The Persian Boy. ;D It is an astonishing book. Mary Renault is a wonderful writer. This whole bit really did it for me, the moment that Bagoas realizes he is in love with Alexander and it breaks his entire world open: "The living chick in the shell has known no other world. Through the wall comes a whiteness, but he does not know it is light. Yet he taps at the white wall, not knowing why. Lightning strikes his heart; the shell breaks open. I thought, There goes my lord, whom I was born to follow. " For me, your quote is counterbalanced by the significance of the quote that you used in your story: "There is a pride in you, wounded but still unyielding; it is perhaps what shaped your prettiness into beauty. With such a nature, living as you have lived between your sordid master and his vulgar friends, you must have been holding back all the while. And very right. But those days are gone. There is a new existence before you. Now you must learn to give a little. I am here for that, to teach you the art of pleasure." He reached out his other hand and gently pulled me down. "Come, I promise you, you will like it much more with me." ‑ from The Persian Boy by Mary Renault "It is perhaps what shaped your prettiness into beauty." I really love that image that beauty can emerge from such a dark past. Then to take your quote, that love is still possible as well. Well, it is a message of hope and encouragement. |
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Post by kymahalei on Aug 10, 2010 9:16:28 GMT -6
The Good Wife, however, is made of win. I'm looking forward to it. In the mean time I've been rereading Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern trilogy. I"m not as fond of the subsequent books, but these three have some good writing and world building. It's interesting, too, how dated some of the cultural premesies are. Right now, my favorite book is The White Dragon tho' it works better if you read the other two first. |
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Post by virtuella on Aug 17, 2010 19:59:15 GMT -6
Best book I've read recently: Peripheral Vision by Patricia Ferguson. Highly interesting characters and cleverly written.
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tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Aug 18, 2010 7:31:30 GMT -6
I opened this thread last week and like Kymahalei, stopped by Amazon shortly thereafter for a look see. My shopping spree arrived yesterday at work, which made it difficult to concentrate. And then when I was finally able to start it, The Persian Boy kept me reading until the wee hours of the night when I couldn't keep my eyes open any more. Even after putting the book down, half read, I lay awake thinking about it for another hour.
I'm bleary-eyed this morning at work, drinking coffee by the urn, and can't wait to get home - get rid of the company that's coming for dinner - and finish the book! Renault writes with the same delicacy and refinement she's given Baggos, an exquiste word painting with tissue paper thin layers of subtly I sometimes caught only out of the corner of my eye. I found myself going back to reread a sentence or paragraph often.
I think I may go buy a few more and give them as Christmas presents to all my same-sex-pairing writing friends. Imho every slash writer could run their orbs over this jewel, multiple times, and come away with something new at every reading.
I acquired the Swordspoint series too. Looking forward to reading them as well!
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Post by kymahalei on Aug 19, 2010 13:36:35 GMT -6
I'm bleary-eyed this morning at work, drinking coffee by the urn, and can't wait to get home - get rid of the company that's coming for dinner - and finish the book! Renault writes with the same delicacy and refinement she's given Baggos, an exquiste word painting with tissue paper thin layers of subtly I sometimes caught only out of the corner of my eye. I found myself going back to reread a sentence or paragraph often. You too, eh? It was like that for me as well. First time through I just savored the book. Second time through I kept wondering how does she do it? Tell me more about the bits you liked. What were they? For me, it was the character of Bagoas. He comes across as so real, so authentic. What is it that makes Renault's characters come together with such integrity? I've hashed this out with my son and covet any input from anybody on the topic as a whole. What is it that makes some characters seem so vibrant and real when others are relgated to archtypes? |
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tanis
Councillor
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Post by tanis on Aug 23, 2010 18:08:18 GMT -6
I was unable to get back to the book Wednesday night - company stayed waaaay too late and RL kicked in again, so it was the weekend before I could finish it. Sighhhhhhhh ... hate when I have to put down a book in the middle.
Tell me more about the bits you liked. What were they?
Ya know, I liked all the bits and I don't know that there were really bits that I liked more than others ... for me it was more the way Renault shaped the character of Bagoas, made me care about him from the second page, drew tears often, but also brought me to laughter. There's an intimacy to her writing that feels almost as if I'm having a conversation in my living room with her, rather than reading a book.
Despite the ending, and the many years Bagoas obviously has to live yet, I thought the character arc was beautifully wrought; this was the story of his life. He was the lover of Alexander the Great - and recognized with his soul, the greatness of the man, without the benefit of our historical perspective. Anything that came after would be anti-climatic.
I loved the tension Renault makes so real, yet without ever letting it overwhelm the story, between Bagoas and Hephaistion. I adore that she has Bagoas let go of his jealousy because he ultimately recognizes Alexander needs them both in different ways and is willing to create his own happiness out of what he has. Her portrayal of Alexander as someone needy of the love of those around him, but not in an egotistical way, really struck me as well. One doesn't tend to think of Alexander the Great as needy in plausible way - yet, Renault make him incredibly human in his desire to be loved, in his restlessness and drive and forward thinking - though much of his forward thinking was based on an old king's memoirs! I liked that too! He became much more than a historical figure for me. And his Persian lover, excavated from the sarcophagus of brief historical mention, became a living, breathing, very beautiful man, not only in physical form, but also in the breadth of his capacity to assimilate what life threw at him and shape it into something beautiful as well.
Interesting question, kymahalei - what it is that makes Renault's characters come together With such integrity? For me, every turn of the page brought some new insight, some hidden facet of character. It didn't get thrown at me in the first two chapters, she built Bagoas slowly, but never parsimoniously. Further, for me, it was done with finesse and subtly. She tells us about the errands the middling merchant who buys him initially sends him on, but she never makes us read the gory details. She leaves all that to the readers imagination. Yet with each new layer of horror that Bags surmounts, a new piece of his character is uncovered. Endurance, strength of mind, purpose ... all things, as a reader, I want to find in myself as well, so instantly I'm caught up in his struggle, in his desire to be more than the future he foresees, and in his purposeful working out of what he must do along the way, no matter what circumstances he lands in, in order to achieve that goal.
And all that's accomplished with well-turned sentences, words that engage my brain and require me to think and even occasionally resort to the dictionary. Renault obviously doesn't feel the need to coddle her reader, because - while themes come round again - there really is no repetition because Bagoas attacks it from a different angle. Alexander becomes a little bit more than he was in the last chapter. And the word pictures - I'm thinking specifically of the chapter where Alexander meets his first wife and the description of the dancing girls and the hall; I was in that place, because Renault took me there - are exquisite.
I think of writers like Dan Brown, who rely mostly on dialogue to tell their story and I feel like many authors are moving in that direction. It's more about what's the quickest route to a movie pick up then writing a book. There are few anymore who take the time to paint a vivid background picture in order to enhance the setting for a jewel of a story. But then, I've met lots of readers who tell me they skip over all the descriptive stuff because it bores them. So I suppose it takes all kinds!
For me, a really good writer weaves the spell with the characters, but also makes me feel like I'm truly there by showing me the place and setting.
I have to say, I was enchanted from cover to cover by The Persian Boy.
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Post by oshun on Aug 24, 2010 17:21:21 GMT -6
I really like The Persian Boy also. One of her later ones and the growing strength of her writing throughout her lifetime really shows. I still love The Last of the Wine and Fire from Heaven more though, probably because I fell in love with them first. Then The Charioteer is one of a kind. If you love The Persian Boy, and haven't read those, you can look forward to them.
I've met lots of readers who tell me they skip over all the descriptive stuff because it bores them.
That drives me crazy! They watch too much TV perhaps--need a quick fix and don't really enjoy reading all that much. If I pick up a story that is without a setting and doesn't give me a sense of being somewhere, I just put it down. I have read enough stories which are largely interior monologue (ahem! fanfiction) or straight-out dialogue and rapid-fire action (bestsellers!) to last me a lifetime. My favorite writers have great descriptions and/or take meandering departures from strictly forward movement of plot which lets one get to know the world and the characters better. (I have actually heard people discussing the craft of writing say that if it does not contribute to moving the plot forward one should cut it--that is such incredible BS that it takes my breath away! Since when did reading a book become a chore to get through instead of a pleasure to savor?)
I found in re-reads of The Persian Boy that there are also fascinating layers within Bagoas's POV. We really do see the events through his eyes, but also as he wants us to see them; e.g., he edits! It's fun to try to guess how conscious he might be of what he is willing to reveal and what he might be withholding. It is a great book.
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Post by oshun on Aug 24, 2010 17:37:15 GMT -6
Possible Spoilers
I have to throw in this quotation from The Persian Boy. How to write a sex scene without getting into lurid detail.
He exclaimed, "Don't tell me you did that with Darius!" and laughed so much he nearly fell out of bed. I was so put out, I hid my face and would not look at him. "What is it?" he asked. I said, "I have displeased you. I will go." He pulled me back. "Don't sulk at me. What is it?" Then his voice altered, and he said, "Do you miss Darius still?"
He was jealous; yes, even he!
It is great fun to try to puzzle out what Bagoas actually did to Alexander.
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Post by erulisse on Aug 25, 2010 4:11:17 GMT -6
It has been a while since I read "The Persian Boy", but I recall that I enjoyed Renault's writing style. The commentary about her building an environment wherein she placed her characters has also been pointed out as one reason why people enjoy Tolkien's work so much. That evocative and fully-fleshed environment into which characters of great aspirations and flaws were placed made immortal literature. Dialog can move a plot along in leaps and bounds, but without the appropriate background, the plot moves onto thin ice. Dan Brown will not be considered immortal literature - no way, no how.
- Erulisse (one L)
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Post by oshun on Aug 25, 2010 10:51:18 GMT -6
After writing comments here on my lofty opinions about good writing yesterday, I am paralyzed with insecurity at the latest bit I wrote of my Nerdanel story. The danger of throwing comments around about others' writings is that then I look at my own and want to go hide in a closet.
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