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Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 21, 2010 0:49:40 GMT -6
"What is Beorn? In The Hobbit Bilbo calls him a man, yet he was able to shapeshift into a bear. I always wonder how the skin-changers fit into the tolkien universe at large, could they as a people have aniur blood in them? Also how do the elves see, interpret and interact with the skin-changers. Can elves be skin-changers themselves? Or is this a mortal trait - it seems that magic is operating in the Hobbit in a much more free way than in LOTR.
Gandalf gives quite a description of Beorn in The Hobbit:
'He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin; sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.
At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly is marvellous as himself. [...] I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself.'
What do you all think?
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 21, 2010 4:24:59 GMT -6
"What is Beorn? In The Hobbit Bilbo calls him a man, yet he was able to shapeshift into a bear. I always wonder how the skin-changers fit into the tolkien universe at large, could they as a people have aniur blood in them? Also how do the elves see, interpret and interact with the skin-changers. Can elves be skin-changers themselves? Or is this a mortal trait - it seems that magic is operating in the Hobbit in a much more free way than in LOTR. Gandalf gives quite a description of Beorn in The Hobbit:
'He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin; sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.
At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly is marvellous as himself. [...] I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself.'
What do you all think? Which is one of the things I love about The Hobbit. When I first read the novel as a pre-adolescent, the concept of the Beorn, the Beornings and the talking animals delighted me. I'm sure you can find learned discourse on the nature of Beorn on various message boards or written by Tolkien scholars although the conclusions of such discussions are often just as speculative as fan fiction, which is a heck of a lot more fun. I'll let Sauron in his guise as Aulendil speak to the possible nature of the Beornings. Had Aulendil known anything about hobbits at the time (which he did not, fortunately for them), he might have added a comment about the "fairy wife" of the Tooks. Mind you, the Ainur of the Pandë!verse are much more like the gods and demi-gods of ancient Rome and Greece or Northwestern Europe, that is, they are not the sanitized versions as Tolkien presented them in his later writings. Excerpt from The Elendilmir, Chapter 22: Trout Fishing in Eregion in which Sámaril and Aulendil are getting sloshed on brandy after fishing. Aulendil has asked Sám about his family history. ~~~~~ “There’s a story that my mother and father call ‘as old as time and just as fuzzy’ -- that an ancestor of our family was one of the Fays. Which is ridiculous. The only Fay who married one of the Children was Queen Melian...” Aulendil snorted so powerfully that brandy went up his nose. He sat up abruptly, pounded his chest and coughed. His sputters transformed to laughter. He caught his breath and wiped his eyes. “Oh, that’s a good one! Do you really believe that twaddle, Sámaril? That Melian is the only Fay who has mingled with those of this Middle-earth?” “That is what is written.” “Did it ever occur to you that the descendants of Lúthien aim to preserve their status by perpetuating that tale? There’s plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.” “How so?” “Oh, please, Sámaril! First and foremost, that Tinfang fellow.” “Tinfang? Who?” “See! Suppressed histories!” he exclaimed with glee. “That’s one more thing that Istyar Pengolodh does not deign to teach correctly to his students. Tinfang’s father was a Noldo, but his mother was a Fay of Yavanna. It is said that the beauty of his music on the pipes could make the stars weep. Poetic nonsense, but I have no doubt of Tinfang’s ancestry. The children of Lúthien just don’t want you to know it. “There’s more: eagles that carry on intelligent conversations with Elves and Men; sentient spiders; Men that change into bears and back again[bolded emphasis, Pandë]; huge talking hounds!” He rubbed the crescent-shaped scars on either side of his neck, scars he claimed were the result of an accident in Aulë’s forges. “Don’t all those things strike you as being rather odd?” “Well, now that you mention it...” “I’ve lived among them. The Maiar. Believe me when I say that they are compelled to become corporeal. They are drawn to incarnates, whether these are the Children of Ilúvatar or bird or beast. The Fays have come to Middle-earth and left their mark among its inhabitants, human and non-human alike.” |
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Post by russandol on Sept 21, 2010 4:55:11 GMT -6
“I’ve lived among them. The Maiar. Believe me when I say that they are compelled to become corporeal. They are drawn to incarnates, whether these are the Children of Ilúvatar or bird or beast. The Fays have come to Middle-earth and left their mark among its inhabitants, human and non-human alike.” Oh, I just love your Annatar, demolishing the established order, myths included, while carefully covering his own part... I buy his version, there are too many magical creatures to be accounted by the canon alone. Don't forget dragons either! ;D |
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Post by erulisse on Sept 21, 2010 5:58:06 GMT -6
Ha! As good an explanation for a skin-walker that I've found. (Love the touch on the crescent scars.) Skin walkers exist in some parts of the world. I've seen one and it was not a fun thing. But it seems that the Beornings are "civilized", or as much so as bears would allow themselves to be.
- Erulisse (one L)
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Post by elfscribe on Sept 21, 2010 13:47:31 GMT -6
I love this group. I come on here and you guys are always talking about the most interesting things that cause me to stop the Important Stuff I was doing and spend time dabbling. Re: Beorn. As several others have pointed out and we all know, skin-changers are common in legends all over the world, most likely reflecting a time when, as hunters, we were much closer to animals, depending more directly on them for our lives. Shamens have power animals that help them and sometimes they turn into animals. This seems to be a common feature of magicians and witches. Gods and goddesses turn into animals routinely, ex. off the top of my head is Zeus turning into a swan or a bull for assignations with human women. As we all know Tolkien drew heavily on Norse myths and legends, and these include gods, such as Loki or Thor turning into various animals. Such a powerful creature as a bear was a common animal for such a transformation. The term berserker, for the famed warriors, supposedly comes from old Norse words for bear plus shirt, indicating that these warriors put on bear skins and thus took on the power of a bear. Remember Beorn showing up at the Battle of Five Armies in his bear incarnation. This is something that comes almost straight from one of the sagas. I think it's King Harald's saga. The other being in Tolkien's world who often turned into an animal, a bat or a wolf, was Sauron, reflecting his kinship with those ancient sorcerers and magicians. In Beorn's case, he seems to be a man, not a Maia, since he dies and in The Two Towers Aragorn says: It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan. So, I'd say he's more akin to a human magician who can shape-shift. My personal feeling is that the Hobbit (as well as early parts of the Fellowship) drew quite a bit on these myths and folk tales of magic before Tolkien worked the whole legendarium out more fully. I think trying to pack them into the mythological scheme of the Silmarillion was a bit after the fact. So we have orcs as Morgoth-distorted forms of elves. But what about dragons, trolls, Shelob, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, ents and the like? Not to mention talking animals like Huan and Gwaihir. Are they all Maiar in different forms? Perhaps. But if so, I suspect the Maiar box becomes a convenient place to draw them from rather than the original inspiration which arises from myths, legends, and fairy tales. My two cents anyway. It's a good question. Btw, Pande, I LOVE your quote there from Aulendil's pov. “I’ve lived among them. The Maiar. Believe me when I say that they are compelled to become corporeal. They are drawn to incarnates, whether these are the Children of Ilúvatar or bird or beast. The Fays have come to Middle-earth and left their mark among its inhabitants, human and non-human alike.” And his snarky comments about Luthien's family. Great stuff. But what did I miss with the crescent scars? Will I feel stupid when you tell me? "What is Beorn? In The Hobbit Bilbo calls him a man, yet he was able to shapeshift into a bear. I always wonder how the skin-changers fit into the tolkien universe at large, could they as a people have aniur blood in them? Also how do the elves see, interpret and interact with the skin-changers. Can elves be skin-changers themselves? Or is this a mortal trait - it seems that magic is operating in the Hobbit in a much more free way than in LOTR. What do you all think? |
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Post by elfscribe on Sept 21, 2010 13:50:25 GMT -6
Skin walkers exist in some parts of the world. I've seen one and it was not a fun thing. But it seems that the Beornings are "civilized", or as much so as bears would allow themselves to be. Interesting, Erulisse, I've lived among Navajos for whom skin walkers are as much a part of the mythological background as demons might be for us. Never saw one, though. Don't want to. Clearly you have a story here. Care to share it? |
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Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 21, 2010 15:02:30 GMT -6
Pande - I actually posted this question as was reading The Elendilmir last night for the up-tenth time - and got to thinking about Sama's backround, wondering which Aniur it was that he had in his blood(re- his conversation with Annatar about the skin-changers and the aniur in general). And this lead to thought's on Elerina's heritage and linkage with the River-daughter. Maybe if Sama and Elerina have any children they could be shape shifters and become raptors:) *just my own little wish*
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 21, 2010 19:59:22 GMT -6
Maybe if Sama and Elerina have any children they could be shape shifters and become raptors:) *just my own little wish* Nothing so exotic.  Stay tuned! You know, I need to re-read all I have written of The Elendilmir to fix some things (standard editing and changing some minor things for continuity). A more canonical and scholarly viewpoint -- that Tolkien took the seeds of Bombadil, the Beornings, etc. from myths, legends and fairy tales -- is by far more accurate than my less-than-scholarly take. My interpretation is just that -- interpretation-- and also a tweak at JRRT's inconsistencies. For a while, (IIRC) he toyed with the notion of Maiarin spirits in eagle-form but later revised this because he didn't want the birds to have "souls." From a scholarly approach, that's a fair assessment. But when writing fan fic, I have all the texts -- The LotR, The Hobbit, The Silm, and the HoMe -- at my disposal as sources so I tend to examine them as a wild and woolly whole for writing purposes ergo such after the fact packing feels "legit" to me. Re: Aulendil's crescent-shaped scars on either side of his neck. Those are the result of Huan biting him during the big show-down by Tol-in-Gaurhoth. It's sort of a nod to how Tolkien handled Sauron's missing finger. Even when he "re-formed" after being "slain" by Elendil and Gilgalad, Sauron could not regenerate that missing finger. I've done something similar with these (non-canonical) scars. |
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Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 21, 2010 22:04:42 GMT -6
"Nothing so exotic. Stay tuned!" Ohh I'm going to keep my hopes up that Sama and Elerina are able to have children together - very happy about this!! "The children of Lúthien just don’t want you to know it." Pande - what would the purpose be for the children of Luthien to keep the Maiar blood/mixing claim solely for their line? Surely if other elves and/or mortals had mixed with aniur's this would have been known, and the descendants would want to have a claim to their mix. As it's not as if Luthien's Line has any more power over people's heritages and stories attached to this than those beings themselves. |
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Post by russandol on Sept 21, 2010 23:24:23 GMT -6
Re: Aulendil's crescent-shaped scars on either side of his neck. Those are the result of Huan biting him during the big show-down by Tol-in-Gaurhoth. It's sort of a nod to how Tolkien handled Sauron's missing finger. Even when he "re-formed" after being "slain" by Elendil and Gilgalad, Sauron could not regenerate that missing finger. I've done something similar with these (non-canonical) scars. Uh, Pande, I included the same crescent scar for the same reason in my current fic, you may remember reading it. Mine is only on one side of the neck, more towards the shoulder, even, and Eonwe knows perfectly well who put it there. I arrived at the same conclusion from reading every scrap of stuff about Sauron that could tell me what he might have looked like.  |
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 22, 2010 4:25:47 GMT -6
ilmareaegnor -- "Stay tuned" = sufficiently ambiguous answer that means "Maybe. Maybe not." Makes them feel superior. Seriously, there's a lot of hierarchy in Tolkien's world: Men who want to be like the Elves who look up to the Maiar who are inferiors to the Valar. Claiming Melian's bloodline would fit with this, at least in my interpretation. . Now that's the 64 dollar question! Or remark. @russa: There's another story (to be included in the future novel/novella) that I wrote, hmmm, quite some time ago, which mentions the same scars, but the story is buried for the time being (too spoilerish in certain respects). I wiggled with glee when I read your take. It's like two mathematicians independently arriving at the same equation or two scientists, given bits and pieces of the same evidence, drawing the same conclusion/theory. I don't have the chutzpah to compare us to Darwin and Wallace though. 
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Post by erulisse on Sept 22, 2010 4:29:34 GMT -6
Skin walkers exist in some parts of the world. I've seen one and it was not a fun thing. But it seems that the Beornings are "civilized", or as much so as bears would allow themselves to be. Interesting, Erulisse, I've lived among Navajos for whom skin walkers are as much a part of the mythological background as demons might be for us. Never saw one, though. Don't want to. Clearly you have a story here. Care to share it? I also lived among the Navajo. My husband's car was chased by a shapeshifter on a bad night going from Albuquerque towards Acoma. I was accosted crossing the Bisti badlands on a moonless night. Like I said - not fun. Very eye opening, though. - Erulisse (one L) |
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Stay tuned!
