Geography question relating to Beleriand

[oshun]

Been thinking about where Maedhros and Maglor might have withdrawn with Elros and Elrond after the destruction at the Havens of Sirion. I can only find references to east Beleriand which as far as I can tell indicates a large block of land eastern side of the Sirion.

I am thinking of placing them for part of that time at least in the foothills of the Andram. I see on the maps that the Andram are referred to as hills, but show on a map as a mountainous divide. I am thinking for purposes of a story at the moment of considering them to be like the Applacian Mountains or the Cumberland Mountains (US states of Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia) which are old worn down mountains, the highest peaks of which would be in a bit over 4,000 feet (1219.2 m) with much of them having elevations below 2,000 feet (609.6 m). (The highest peak of the Cumberlands tops out at an elevation of 4,145 feet (1,263 m) above sea level.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I need to work it out in my head sooner rather than later for purposes of a story I am working on at the moment.

[erulisse]

They are referred to as Limestone in nature, and the Falls of Sirion, which are famous for their fall and their volume, are in the Andram. Here are some pics...

This is in Spain...

www.google.com/imgres?q=limestone+mountains+and+cliffs&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1301&bih=687&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=wY8k4S5qds28yM:&imgrefurl=http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Limestone-Cliffs-of-Prades-Mountains-Catalonia-Spain-Posters_i4071990_.htm&docid=PxA16FHvqiDwNM&imgurl=http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/29/2967/SC7QD00Z/posters/anders-blomqvist-limestone-cliffs-of-prades-mountains-catalonia-spain.jpg&w=473&h=354&ei=4lkfT967J4eJgwe8t6D8Dg&zoom=1

These are in China

www.google.com/imgres?q=limestone+mountains+and+cliffs&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1301&bih=687&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=1gxuSShB3PBN9M:&imgrefurl=http://www.panoramio.com/photo/46447089&docid=JrQcEi99FXABqM&itg=1&imgurl=http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/46447089.jpg&w=800&h=482&ei=4lkfT967J4eJgwe8t6D8Dg&zoom=1

This is near Lisbon, Portugal.

www.google.com/imgres?q=limestone+mountains+and+cliffs&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1301&bih=687&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=eWJCapB5E8m5uM:&imgrefurl=http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/166734/enlarge&docid=XkZvZjzlc95_GM&imgurl=http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/166734/large/E2800441-Coastal_cliffs-SPL.jpg&w=530&h=356&ei=4lkfT967J4eJgwe8t6D8Dg&zoom=1

This lovely waterfall is from Thailand and is a limestone cliff waterfall.

www.google.com/imgres?q=limestone+mountains+and+cliffs&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1301&bih=687&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=LQWuHkfz3cwYJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.guide-thailand.com/province/56/1&docid=xxHtpc7WVaKwwM&imgurl=http://www.guide-thailand.com/uploads/e7d929.jpg&w=600&h=450&ei=4lkfT967J4eJgwe8t6D8Dg&zoom=1

As a child of the Rocky Mountains, and one who has never been far enough east to see the Appalachian Mountains of the east, I read Beleriand, as a fairly new landform (in the scheme of things) and landforms like that tend to have more knife-edged cliffs and precipices. Of course, the Amdran go perpendicular to the Blue Mountains and those of Ered Luin, and the topo map at the bottom of the Atlas shows them as quite low and rather rounded, so comparing them to the Appalachian mountains may be perfect.

Did I just help muddy your waters?

- Erulisse (one L)

[oshun]

No! Thank you. Where did you find the limestone reference? I must be looking in all the wrong books.

For some odd reason, none of those links above work. Nevermind me. It probably has something to do with the way I access Google. I have never ending problems with anything Google-related, except for searching myself.

[pandemonium]

Jan 24, 2012 19:37:40 GMT -6 oshun said:

No! Thank you. Where did you find the limestone reference? I must be looking in all the wrong books.

If you're looking in the source texts, you won't find the limestone reference. Although JRRT describes the region in some detail in The Silmarillion, the geological composition of the Andram is not specified. However, Karen Fonstad, in The Atlas of Middle-earth, speculates thusly:

Cutting through central Beleriand was the "Long Wall" of Andram. From the north, the wall may not have been evident, for the land fell steeply. Approaching from the south, it appeared as an endless chain of hills. The rock layers forming this outcrop may have been soluble limestone. [Emphasis mine.]

Tolkien mentions limestone explicitly in The Fellowship of the Ring in reference to the Fellowship taking their boats over the old portage way to avoid the rapids of the Anduin:

Nonetheless it needed the strength of the two Men to lift and haul them over the ground that the Company now had to cross. It sloped up away from the River, a tumbled waste of grey limestone-boulders, with many hidden holes shrouded with weeds and bushes; there were thickets of brambles, and sheer dells; and here and there boggy pools fed by waters trickling from the terraces further inland.

Thus, the Andram as limestone appears to be derived from Fonstad's interpretation. A logical and perhaps informed by her education and background interpretation, but fanon all the same. So let's be careful out there. I enjoy Fonstad's atlas, but I take it with a grain or three of salt.

The Andram could easily be an ancient and worn-down range like the Cumberlands or the Poconos. Who's to know exactly how continental drift function or where fault lines arose in this imaginary land of an imaginary history?

[oshun]

I had pretty much stopped using Fonstad's Atlas because some interpretation was different that I could put together from the sources--it was originally published before some of the sources we have were available. Not that I am a geographer or geologist--couldn't be farther from it. I only took the two-semester Earth Sciences and Geology courses for English Majors in my first year of college.

I think I originally became annoyed by her not over her topography of the land, but her fannish floor plan for the Meduseld which intersected and contradicted my fanon, based upon my area of expertise (to the degree that I had any)--early English architecture as reflected in the sagas and stories which I thought might have influenced Tolkien's description of the Meduseld which she did not take into consideration.

[oshun]

I was hoping for a more woody landscape. I also was less concerned about the Falls of Sirion area but to the eastern end.

Here is an internet description of the Appalachian Mountains. (http://www.peakbagger.com/range.aspx?rid=16)

Among the world's great mountain ranges, the Appalachian Mountains are pretty undistinguished. Mostly low and gentle, some would hesitate to call them "mountains". . . . And, they approximate the ruggedness of low ranges like the Russian Urals or the Ghats in India. Those from western North America, especially those from Colorado, love to point out that most of the High Plains, at the base of the Rockies, are as high or higher than most major Appalachian summits.

....despite large areas that are little more than gentle hills, the base-to-summit rise and ruggedness of a few sections of the Appalachians can be impressive. For example, the vertical gain of the standard hike up New Hampshire's Mount Adams (5798') is greater than that for Colorado's Mount Elbert (14,433'), highest peak in the Rockies. And try telling anyone who has hiked Katahdin's Knife Edge, the Appalachian Trail through the Mahoosucs, or the crest of Grandfather Mountain on the Blue Ridge that the Appalachians are gentle, easy, unchallenging hills.

After their relative lack of height and ruggedness, the most important characteristic of the Appalachians when compared to mountains in western North America is their extensive forest.

I am sweating over paragraph or two at most. But I am not finished yet with the story. It could come up again and I hate not to have a clear visual image for myself at least of a setting.

The thing that originally bugged me about his description of the Andram is that he calls them hills, but they look like mountains to me--I was born in a hilly area--and that is quite fantastically different from the lowest, gentlest mountains.

[pandemonium]

Jan 24, 2012 20:59:35 GMT -6 oshun said:

I was hoping for a more woody landscape. I also was less concerned about the Falls of Sirion area but to the eastern end.

Then use a region of the Appalachian range for inspiration! The quoted article raises a very good point, esp. when considering vertical gain, and the forested nature of the Appalachians contributes to their beauty in a big way.

So. Blue Ridge? Adirondacks?

[oshun]

All of those work for me! I feel like all this talk of the Appalacian Mountains makes me want to break into a rendition of an old English Ballad (if only I could sing)--god only knows how Maglor would react to one of those.

youtu.be/ua0QuXO4wgE?t=4s

[elleth]

I can't help with RL references for Andram, living and always within waking memory having lived in an area that has about the elevation of a kitchen towel, and having been in hilly/mountainous areas only for a very short time, but withdrawing to Andram would make sense for the Feanorians:

We know that canonically that (at least) Maedhros lived at Amon Ereb after the Bragollach, whereas it can be assumed that others (the twins, most probably, given that Ossiriand was their domain) were wandering further east, so they might have some familiarity with the area, which in turn helps if you are expecting retaliation from Círdan or the survivors of the Havens.

Uhm, yeah. My two cents.

[oshun]

Jan 25, 2012 3:00:25 GMT -6 elleth said:

I can't help with RL references for Andram, living and always within waking memory having lived in an area that has about the elevation of a kitchen towel, and having been in hilly/mountainous areas only for a very short time, but withdrawing to Andram would make sense for the Feanorians:

We know that canonically that (at least) Maedhros lived at Amon Ereb after the Bragollach, whereas it can be assumed that others (the twins, most probably, given that Ossiriand was their domain) were wandering further east, so they might have some familiarity with the area, which in turn helps if you are expecting retaliation from Círdan or the survivors of the Havens.

Uhm, yeah. My two cents.

Thanks, Elleth. Those are the kinds of things I was hoping to take into consideration. I cannot picture them living as complete nomads for the purposes of my story.

[pandemonium]

Jan 24, 2012 21:16:58 GMT -6 oshun said:

All of those work for me! I feel like all this talk of the Appalacian Mountains makes me want to break into a rendition of an old English Ballad (if only I could sing)--god only knows how Maglor would react to one of those.

youtu.be/ua0QuXO4wgE?t=4s

Remember the nattering on my LJ about Daniel Day-Lewis in The Last of the Mohicans? That final scene was shot on Table Rock Mountain in the Pisgah National Forest, North Carolina (part of the Blue Ridge Mtn range). To my mind, the scenery could be ripped right out of Beleriand.

Here's the link to "Promontory" from The Last of the Mohicans. Warning to those with delicate sensibilities: depiction of violence therein.

Promontory

[oshun]

That is great. That entire movie is incredibly beautiful--the music and the landscape. It makes me think of the Hudson River School of landscape painters. And that is my internal visual image of East Beleriand and Ossiriand.