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Post by aearwen on Nov 29, 2009 19:03:20 GMT -6
We know that after Eärendil makes it to Valinor, both he and Elwing were offered the Peredhil's choice. However, in my latest story, Foundlings, I'm asserting that Elurín and Eluréd survived the sacking of Menegroth by the sons of Fëanor. So, granted that the Valar are fully aware that the boys still live...
What are the arguments pro and con that they are (1) mortal; and (2) immortal?
Nimloth was an Elf, which makes her children 3/4s Elvish. And the timeline would make the boys just nicely into their prime when their sister and her husband make it to Valinor. So, in my Foundlings-influenced timeline, the boys would still be alive as well.
Could one posit that, having been raised with Elves that don't know their heritage, they would always assume themselves edhil and their choice get made without being conscious of their ever even having a choice to begin with?
There's a reason I ask, for I have ideas about where one of Dior's sons - immortal - ended up.
Opinions, please! I want to know how reasonable it is to propose yet another bit of Silmarillion heresy (their being immortals.)
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Post by Darth Fingon on Nov 29, 2009 22:14:05 GMT -6
What are the arguments pro and con that they are (1) mortal; and (2) immortal? As far as I understand it, the default is mortality, the evidence being this: *Dior, Elwing, and Earendil aged at mortal rates. *Elwing and Earendil were not given any choice until Earendil arrived in Valinor. *Mithrellas' children were presumed mortal and given no choice at all. However, here's the tricky part. Halfelven even in the pre-choice days did not continue to age at mortal rates. When Elros and Elrond were given their choice, they were about sixty years old. Had they continued to age as mortals, they would be old men by this point. So presumably their ageing stalled sometime after reaching adulthood. Eluréd and Elurín, being only about thirty years older than Elros and Elrond, probably wouldn't look much different. I don't think one could get away with the argument that they wouldn't know their mortal heritage, simply because they would grow much faster than any Elven children. At twenty they'd be grown men while the Elves their age would look like mortal nine-year-olds. |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Nov 30, 2009 7:24:55 GMT -6
I'll agree with Darth on the rate of aging sort of giving away the fact that they have mortal heritage.
Is there any way you could have them participating in the War of Wrath? As part of a company of archers or scouts, perhaps? Then you could argue that at some point they were called before Eonwe and offered the same choice as Elrond and Elros were.
Just a thought. I don't think they could simply unconsciously make the choice - but I think you could probably make it plausible that they were offered the choice and that at least one of them chose immortality.
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Post by crowdaughter on Nov 30, 2009 12:44:56 GMT -6
But if they never came into touch with any Elven children our youth before they reached the time when age stalled, would they know the difference? If their foster parents treated their fast aging as normal, would they see it as any indication themselves that they had to be mortal? They could grow up, stop aging and simply assume themselves a kind of edhil (and thusly being immortal) without ever being the wiser, if their foster parents did not tell them their fast aging was odd and if they had no other children around to compare themselves to.
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Post by aearwen on Nov 30, 2009 13:25:00 GMT -6
Well, in Foundlings, I establish in this last chapter that there were about a dozen children in the settlement. So I would imagine the accelerated maturation process would become noticable over time. And I looked at dates this morning in EoA. The sack of Menegroth was listed as taking place in 1505 FstA, and the War of Wrath in 1583 FstA. If the boys were 9 or so when Menegroth was sacked, then they would be in their nineties for the War of Wrath - roughly the same age Aragorn was during the War of the Rings - and just reaching their prime. It is possible, if one posits that the Valar know who and what they are, that the same boon given to Elwing and Eärendil and their line could have been also offered very quietly to Dior's boys. But it will be borderline AU territory - definitely within the definition of canon heresy. *eyes the seat next to Pandë*Anybody sitting there?  Thanks, guys! |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Nov 30, 2009 15:12:20 GMT -6
But it will be borderline AU territory - definitely within the definition of canon heresy. *eyes the seat next to Pandë*Anybody sitting there? Thanks, guys! I'm on her other side - will I crack open a bottle of wine so we can have a 'Heretics 'r' Us' party? ;D |
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Post by pandemonium on Nov 30, 2009 21:12:39 GMT -6
Oh, I think with Along Came a Spider you sat down fair and square. Evidence suggests mortality is the default setting in the progeny of Elf-Mortal unions, but the scenario you suggest above is not really borderline AU territory IMO. Nothing is written in the "histories" about the fate of Elurín and Eluréd, that is, that they were found dead, etc. So with "canon" silent on this, I'd say the suggested scenario is quite plausible. Of course, my interpretation of Tolkienian canon is more like a rampaging gnostic than an orthodox believer.  |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Dec 1, 2009 9:03:22 GMT -6
Of course, my interpretation of Tolkienian canon is more like a rampaging gnostic than an orthodox believer. Okay, so the mental image of a 'rampaging gnostic' was enough to make my inner former theology student snort tea out through my nose. ;D |
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Post by nierielraina on Dec 1, 2009 18:48:18 GMT -6
It is possible, if one posits that the Valar know who and what they are, that the same boon given to Elwing and Eärendil and their line could have been also offered very quietly to Dior's boys. But it will be borderline AU territory - definitely within the definition of canon heresy. I don't think this would automatically make it AU either. I think with nothing known of the E's fates, that they could well have been given the choice. I think it's simply one interpretation of canon. I am itching to see this written, you know. How's the bunny faring? *leaves plate of carrots and a pot of expresso* |
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Post by pandemonium on Dec 1, 2009 20:30:33 GMT -6
Of course, my interpretation of Tolkienian canon is more like a rampaging gnostic than an orthodox believer. Okay, so the mental image of a 'rampaging gnostic' was enough to make my inner former theology student snort tea out through my nose. ;D I'll have to draw a cartoon. ;D |
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Post by aearwen on Dec 2, 2009 5:52:37 GMT -6
I am itching to see this written, you know. How's the bunny faring? *leaves plate of carrots and a pot of expresso* Bunny's doing fine - my eight-legged cat enjoys toying with it with all those carrots you keep sending. Okay, so the mental image of a 'rampaging gnostic' was enough to make my inner former theology student snort tea out through my nose. ;D I'll have to draw a cartoon. ;D OH! Do!! That, I'd love to see! |
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Post by pandemonium on Dec 2, 2009 6:21:29 GMT -6
I'll put it in my little pocket of ideas for "editorial cartoons" as depicted by Little Gothmog and Stinky Pete. Maybe that cartoon can address the Canon Wars. The other cartoon idea that's percolating addresses the reprehensible practice of "sporking"/MSTing.
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