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Post by randy on Feb 21, 2011 21:34:50 GMT -6
For Vanime, who wrote:
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Post by dracoena on Feb 22, 2011 4:08:15 GMT -6
But that´s exactly what happens in our world as well! One thing is to divide time in a mathematical way (days, months, years, centuries, yéni or whatever) and another to determine important milestones from which to start counting, so the resulting dates will be meaningful for everybody in a given civilization. There´s no sense in counting mathematically if we don´t agree on where to start -as obviously when the world actually started we weren´t there yet.
Right now, for example, we live in 2011 after Jesus was born, just as Tolkien´s people would have lived in 2011 after the sinking of Beleriand. It´s their milestone. The birth of Jesus (or the alleged birth of Jesus, as ironically enough he wasn´t really born in that year) is our milestone, so we count from there. Muslims count from the year of Mohammed´s flight, Greeks from the date of the first Olympic games, and Romans from the foundation of their city. They are all conventions that people agree upon, and it has nothing to do with mathematics or science. In fact, our BC age is hundreds of thousands of times longer and will always remain so.
In Tolkien´s world we can also see those differences: though the three Age system is the reckoning mode of the "high" civilizations that have the most ancient traditions (the High Elves and the Men of the West), the Shire has its own reckoning, which starts when the Hobbits were established there in the middle of the Third Age. And we can imagine that Dwarves, Dark Elves and other Men would have their own as well, related to events that were important to them.
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Post by elleth on Feb 22, 2011 4:39:33 GMT -6
It seems a bit arbitrary at first glance, but considering that the ends of the respective Ages were marked by grand-scale cataclysms (and destruction of three evil empires to go with it) that couldn't fail to have cultural impact, especially in a world where fighting evil incarnate had a long tradition, makes the practice a good deal more understandable, especially as it doesn't abrogate more regularly-spaced calendar systems. The Valar seem to have had those; the Silmarillion has several mentions of other Ages: the Ages of the Lamps, Stars, Trees, three Ages of Melkor's bondage... hm.
Thinking of our real world dating changes, the BC/AD system comes to mind. It was created several hundred years after the fact and popularized even later, but it still marks an allegedly pivotal event. ETA: And Dracoena listed many more. This is what I get for taking hours to post without having my morning tea.
And on the topic of Christianity, somewhat unrelated, St. Augustine introduced a Christian Six-Ages system which (along with the Greek mythological golden - silver - bronze - iron ages idea for Númenor) always seemed like an inspiration for Tolkien to me.
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Post by vanime18431 on Feb 22, 2011 18:09:26 GMT -6
Thank you all for putting this information here. It really helps...and while I do understand that in some ways our civilization(s) do the same thing, ie: BC/AD; - our millenium is a straightforward every 1,000 years. Just as a century is every 100. My problem with the aspect of time in ME, is that there is no set formula. The ONLY formula it seems to possess is that one has to really REALLY remember the histories in order to say, "okay this is taking place during such and such an age." While I don't consider myself stupid/dumb/whatever, it's a LOT to remember, AND to remember it in the right order??? WHEW! It took me at least a week to remember all of Feanor's sons' names! LOL Sometimes my confusion comes into play when dealing with Shire reckonings, et al, in relation to other times, ie: the age of the elves, etc. How does one handle all that?? I mean, I could remember the date when Frodo awoke in Rivendell - Oct. 24th - with no problem - I associate it with my parents anniversary.  Does one as an author or other than, make some sort of timeline sheet that makes sense to them? Or do they follow the Master's writings in this endeavor? I am curious. If after all, there was a system to memorizing this sort of thing, I wouldn't need to have to keep referencing other parts of the book(s) to get my bearings, if you know what I mean. And don't even get me started in trying to remember where all the place names go that had/have appeared over time! LOL Hugs and Love, Vanime PS Elleth, I also like the Six-Ages system too. Hmmm, you know it kinda makes me think of Gondolin and the seven level names there...too bad Tolkien didn't do something like that. Might've helped a dweeb like me!  |
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Post by dracoena on Feb 23, 2011 8:00:49 GMT -6
It´s curious, because to a classicist/ scholar of Antiquity like me, it always seemed like Tolkien had simplified stuff in his universe, instead of the other way round! Do you know that each Greek city originally had their own reckoning system? That Romans identified years by "the year in which so-and-so were consuls"? That the count of time in histories started by counting generations of mythical heroes and attributing a completely arbitrary life span to each, or either happily dating each event from the Trojan war or the Return of the Heraclids and a lot other stuff whose dates they didn´t even agree upon in the first place? Getting into that is a nightmarish business, and I´m glad that in Tolkien´s world there are immortal and oh-so-clever Elves to conveniently keep the count!
"It really helps...and while I do understand that in some ways our civilization(s) do the same thing, ie: BC/AD; - our millenium is a straightforward every 1,000 years. Just as a century is every 100."
But what I mean is... those are different things. 100 and 1000 are numbers. You can use them to count, and Tolkien´s people use them to count, too. The issue at hand is: count from what? From the time when such-and-such realm was founded? From the time when such-and-such great leader was born? From the time when you reckon the world must have started? (and in a pre-scientifical world, no less!) From something that is important to X civilization but not to Y? This problem is the same in both worlds, and while we have our own milestones to start counting, they have theirs.
Or, if you prefer: A millenium is a millenium here and in Middle Earth, because a millenium just means that 1000 years have passed. It´s a mathematical concept. But after a millenium has passed you don´t start counting again. The next year to 2000 AD is 2001 AD. You start counting from a certain point, and that concept is not mathematical. It must be something people agree upon. Therefore, it must be something important to a lot of people, which in turn means that it´s a historical (or pseudo-historical) event.
"The ONLY formula it seems to possess is that one has to really REALLY remember the histories in order to say, "okay this is taking place during such and such an age." While I don't consider myself stupid/dumb/whatever, it's a LOT to remember"
That´s because we don´t live in that world. If we did, we would know in which year you lived, and in which year the important stuff happened, just like living in this world we don´t have any problem remembering that we are in 2011, that the French revolution happened in 1789 or that Rome was said to be founded in 753 BC. Alas, it´s just a secondary world, so even the worst canon buffs aren´t as much "into" it as we are into our real world, where we are trained since we are born to understand our surroundings.
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Post by elleth on Feb 23, 2011 16:12:45 GMT -6
- our millenium is a straightforward every 1,000 years. Just as a century is every 100. My problem with the aspect of time in ME, is that there is no set formula. Ah, there's the rub? I'm sorry for misunderstanding your problem at first... the thing is, I think, that the events that marked the turn of the Ages were not supposed to represent any regular sort of reckoning or calendar system. They just happened, and (presumably) triggered enough changes for people to call quits on an Age. There really is no set formula if you view Middle-earth from this angle. Like Dracoena said so well, they posed a beginning or end for one little corner of Arda that the populace could agree on. If after all, there was a system to memorizing this sort of thing, I wouldn't need to have to keep referencing other parts of the book(s) to get my bearings, if you know what I mean. I'm sorry if this is completely off the mark or pretentious, I don't know how familiar you are with Tolkien's works (no offense is meant, at any rate!), but there is an sort of order that (even though it's horribly generalized) might help? The First Age (and prior) is primarily concerned with the Elves (mainly the Noldor), first in Aman, then in Beleriand fighting against Morgoth. Spatially speaking, the narrative never goes much further east than the Blue Mountains. It's all Silmarils, all the time. The Second Age is largely concerned with Númenor. They do sail to Middle-earth and act as culture heroes (and later, tyrants of the evil sort), and there is Eregion that is founded, reaches the height of its power and is obliterated by Sauron, who in turn is defeated by the Elves and Númenoreans in war, all around the halfway point of the Second Age (in between 1300 and 1700). The end is marked by the Fall of Númenor and the Battle of the Last Alliance. And the Third Age, well. I'm not that well-versed in the intricacies here, but generally speaking Middle-earth history as we know it is concerned with humans, primarily of Númenorean descent, of Arnor and Gondor, and the decline of these exilic realms. Of course that's just the way I've filed things in my mind, but remembering the larger context of an event, artifact or whatnot generally seems helpful for remembering where and when it happened? I was pretty lost in that regard myself (though in context of my archaeology studies, not in Middle-earth) until one of my profs recommended the idea, so thought I'd share. |
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Post by elfscribe on Feb 24, 2011 22:32:23 GMT -6
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Post by grey gazania on Feb 25, 2011 9:37:58 GMT -6
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Post by vanime18431 on Feb 25, 2011 17:11:27 GMT -6
Ah thank you all for those sites! They will help me tremendously. I had thought to treat it all as if it were one large history course of sorts. (Love History, it was one of my best subjects in school) But not sure if that would work, sigh...no Professor is teaching that class!  Hugs and Love, Vanime |
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Does one as an author or other than, make some sort of timeline sheet that makes sense to them? Or do they follow the Master's writings in this endeavor? I am curious. If after all, there was a system to memorizing this sort of thing, I wouldn't need to have to keep referencing other parts of the book(s) to get my bearings, if you know what I mean.
