What made you a good writer?

[kymahalei]

I was just reflecting on the many things I"ve learned about writing from the lizards. It's been a whole, whole lot. Save for one creative writing class at the dawn of prehistory, I've never had the opportunity to formally learn writing skills, but I feel really blessed to have had the guidance of the lizards. Thinking such thoughts got me to wondering how you became the writer you are today. Was it a class? An individual? An online course? What pushed you into being a good writer?

[erulisse]

I'n not a good writer, there are many who post here who leave me eating their dust (and enjoying the meal). I got pushed into making my writings public because I had read so much poor writing on other sites that I knew I was at least that good and that my LC friends would help me to become better. And I did, and they did, and we're all on a roll.

- Erulisse (one L)

[elleth]

Like OneL I don't consider myself a good writer and likely never will, because trying to experiment with and perhaps improving my writing is one of the things that keeps me writing in the first place, and frankly, the idea that I'll be there at some point is something of a nightmare because right now I can't consider a stopping point and not think of stagnation. I've had half a writing class at uni that I dropped out of early because it was rubbish and did more harm than good.

But there are things that improved my writing from the first attempts I threw up onto ff.net nearly a decade ago. Most of these probably are no-brainers.

Input: I can't work in a vaccuum and while I could happily function as a hermit in the woods, I don't think it would do anything for my creativity unless there was a working internet account. I need images, stories, ideas, data, questions from whatever source that will remix and merge and bring up something new. Just recently I read a blog post that was something of an eye-opener. I don't agree with all things the writer says, but others make perfect sense for me personally (since this is post all-out subjective anyway).

Reading: Not just as a part of input, but for the nuts and bolts and technical stuff that makes a story good. I'm not a native speaker of English and keep struggling to improve my vocabulary, register and grammar, but I probably don't have to mention what good aware reading (as opposed to reading for enjoyment) does. The book that left the most lasting impression of what not to do was Atlantis by David Gibbins, in terms of technobabble, implausible plots and how to stereotype cardboard characters. It's been years since I read it, but it stayed with me as a no-no. Things to do that I found helpful and inspiring can be read at Five Things Clarion where attendants of a writing workshop post their experiences.

Friends. Perhaps THE most important point here. Writing is a largely personal thing for me, but that doesn't negate their importance. Preferably if they are also interested in writing or writers themselves (this isn't to say that I can't be friends with people not interested in creative pursuits, but we're talking about writing here). Discussing ideas, letting characters act things out. I've been doing that - and online roleplaying - in some way or another ever since I came into Tolkien fandom, and like to think it's been helping my characterisation, voice and dialogue abilities tremendously. Not to mention the encouragements. I'm a very insecure person, so that's been more valuable than I can say, and without them I'd likely never have posted anything. The nitpicking here at LC has been important as well, and right now I'm wondering how I ever did without it.

Neil Gaiman. My favourite author aside from Tolkien and constant source of inspiration. I like to think that I learned more about writing than I ever did before when I was lucky enough to attend a Q&A plus reading of The Graveyard Book in 2009. Like poetry, you should be able to read good writing aloud, to paraphrase what he'd said. What comes closest to the rest is this essay.

And I think that's it. Disjointed, I know, but you did ask.

[aearwen]

I don't consider myself as much more than a mediocre writer, although I would like to think I'm improving as time goes by.

I do know that I'm much better on keeping a tighter hold on POV, although that seems to be something that this fandom (or, at least, those who are considered "good" within this fandom) obsesses over far more than others. That progress I can lay directly at the feet of first the GoI ladies, who pounded POV into my head until it stuck.

I've got my share of really BAD stuff up at FFN - not under this authorID, of course, or in this fandom - that I'd just as soon faded into the mists of time. I also have some stuff that may make those who prefer tight single POV to accuse me of "head-hopping", but which were very popular because they were complex and multi-threaded. IDD is the first story I've attempted in this fandom that makes use of the more complex ploting with multi-threading combined with what I've learned about tighter POV-per-section.

I think writing is one of those things that one learns by doing - very similar to the way one learns a musical instrument. One cannot practice the violin or the piano in theory alone; one must pick up/sit down and put hands/fingers to the keyboard and learn the moves until they become second nature. The same with writing. One needs to write, and write, and write - and get decent concrit along the way.

I've been lucky to have fallen in with a wonderful group of people dedicated to mutual betterment at the art of storytelling. I am grateful to all who have helped me along my path.

[tanis]

I think I was born with the need to write. It's like mini-death when the muse takes a hike and resurrection when it returns.

But wow - three out of four consider themselves less than *good* writers. I'm curious what measurement or standard is being used for judgement purposes. Is it the number of readers? The amount of feedback received? The number of nominations or awards one's received? What validates good writing for you?

I have a very old degree in Media Journalism, like Kymhalei, from back in the days when Strunk and White was THE arbiter of good writing. Back when everyone used commas before *and* and *but* and closed off *too* in commas all the time. Plus I've taken several classes in creative writing after college as well. That probably provided the platform for belief in my writing skills; aided and abetted by all the measurements above over the course of several years of writing and posting in another fandom. However, despite a level of confidence in my writing skills, I'm still anxious every time I time I put up a new story.

Fandom friends - and enemies - have certainly contributed to my growth as a writer, as well as growth as an indivdual. I've had the privilege of meeting some incredible folk on this journey, people I would never have encountered in my so-called real life. And being part of a community that's supportive and nurturing in a productive kind of way (like this one) is both fun and exciting, and for me, really helps to keep the muse awake and active.

[elfscribe]

I am busy procrastinating and Ky got me thinking here. I don't particularly consider myself a good writer. We all practice and study good writing in an effort to improve. In that pursuit, I thought I'd share some words of wisdom by much better writers than I.

There are about a zillion good books on writing. Writers seem to be particularly apt at discussing their craft, which should come as no surprise. I have a short list of my favorites in this genre.

1) I just finished On Writing by Stephen King, which is also autobiographical and quite funny in parts. It repeats much of what you'll hear from other writers, but that is reassuring that one is hearing Truth. lol.
2) Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott, in which she recounts a story about her father's advice to her brother who was frozen into inaction by the size of a school project on species of birds. Her father said to him, "well, you just have to take it bird by bird."
3)On Becoming a Novelist by John Gardner (a wonderful book even if his advice for aspiring writers is to marry a woman who will support you).
4)Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg, which is a Zen approach to writing and quite wonderful in its insights.
5) Two small books that have been extremely helpful to me in the nuts and bolts of the writing craft: The Novelist's Guide to Creating Plot by J. Madison Davis and 6) Novelist's Guide to Crafting Scenes by Raymond Obstfeld.

For me, these books have been insightful and filled with wit and wisdom, as well as Useful Ideas. But there is only one book on writing that actually made me burst into tears because it felt so true. The book is a collection of essays by one of my favorite writers, Ursula K. LeGuin called The Wave in the Mind. The last essay is called 'The Question I Get Asked Most Often' which is, of course, where do you get your ideas. LeGuin says that Harlan Ellison's pat answer to this is he gets them from a mail-order house in Schenectady, because how does one really answer this question? And LeGuin, pondering the reason why people ask that question concludes it's because people want the Secret that they can use to write a best-seller and become rich and famous. LeGuin says "the secret to writing is writing. It's only a secret to people who don't want to hear it. Writing is how you be a writer."

Although completely true, that seems ultimately unhelpful in dissecting the roots of inspiration, but then LeGuin begins to talk about what engenders creativity. She quotes a letter written by Virginia Woolf that I felt was a profound expression of the creative process. The sentence that got to me is in italics:

Virginia Woolf wrote: "Style is a very simple matter: it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you can't use the wrong words. But on the other hand here am I sitting after half the morning, crammed with ideas, and visions, and so on, and can't dislodge them, for lack of the right rhythm. Now this is very profound, what rhythm is, and goes far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in the mind, long before it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is my present belief) one has to recapture this, and set this working (which has nothing apparently to do with words) and then, as it breaks and tumbles in the mind, it makes words to fit it. . . ."

LeGuin adds: "I have not found anything more profound, or more useful, about the source of story-- where the ideas come from. Beneath memory and experience, beneath imagination and invention -- beneath words, as she says -- there are rhythms to which memory and imagination and words all move; and the writer's job is to go down deep enough to begin to feel that rhythm, to find it, move to it, be moved by it, and let it move memory and imagination to find words.

LeGuin continues ". . . her wave is a sea wave, traveling smooth and silent a thousand miles across the ocean til it strikes the shore, and crashes, breaks, and flies up in a foam of words. . . So the writer's job is to recognize the wave, the silent swell, way out at sea, way out in the ocean of the mind, and follow it to shore . . . "

So, that's my ponderable for the day.

[kymahalei]

Apr 11, 2011 13:41:54 GMT -6 elfscribe said:

:

Virginia Woolf wrote: "Style is a very simple matter: it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you can't use the wrong words. But on the other hand here am I sitting after half the morning, crammed with ideas, and visions, and so on, and can't dislodge them, for lack of the right rhythm. Now this is very profound, what rhythm is, and goes far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in the mind, long before it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is my present belief) one has to recapture this, and set this working (which has nothing apparently to do with words) and then, as it breaks and tumbles in the mind, it makes words to fit it. . . ."
.

I just looked this book up on Amazon. It's in my shopping cart waiting for a little bit of cash to get it. I love the imagery of the wave and the rhythm.

I might add that the wave itself is thin or rich based on the author's past experiences. Compared to most of the lizards, I really haven't written all that much, my experience with formal training and research is sparse. I need to get out and really experience people with my writer's eye. I can scramble for good writing, but how much robust my stories will be when I've done the writing, read the books and lived life as a writer. I think of it like rich water. There are no shortcuts to becoming good at the craft. With few exceptions, good writers are made, not born. The key is mindful experiences with writing and with feeding the muse.

Thanks for the book list, Elfscribe. What a great resource.

[elfscribe]

Elleth, I just went and looked at the how-to-steal-like-an-artist blog and really enjoyed it. And appreciated www.neilgaiman.com/p/Cool_Stuff/Essays/Essays_By_Neil/Where_do_you_get_your_ideas%3FNeil Gaiman's essay a lot. All true. It was also good to read your discussion about reading, input, and friends and I identify with what you said, especially about the importance of friends in the fandom. Tanis said something similar. I feel I owe a lot to all of you generous people taking time to crit each other's work and be supportive.

Tanis also said she owed a lot to her fandom enemies as well as friends and I'd like to hear more about that or maybe that's for a locked post. lol.

Apr 5, 2011 2:31:05 GMT -6 elleth said:

Just recently I read a blog post that was something of an eye-opener. I don't agree with all things the writer says, but others make perfect sense for me personally (since this is post all-out subjective anyway).

[raksha]

Apr 8, 2011 8:40:34 GMT -6 tanis said:

I think I was born with the need to write. It's like mini-death when the muse takes a hike and resurrection when it returns.

But wow - three out of four consider themselves less than *good* writers. I'm curious what measurement or standard is being used for judgement purposes. Is it the number of readers? The amount of feedback received? The number of nominations or awards one's received? What validates good writing for you?

I have a very old degree in Media Journalism, like Kymhalei, from back in the days when Strunk and White was THE arbiter of good writing. Back when everyone used commas before *and* and *but* and closed off *too* in commas all the time. Plus I've taken several classes in creative writing after college as well. That probably provided the platform for belief in my writing skills; aided and abetted by all the measurements above over the course of several years of writing and posting in another fandom. However, despite a level of confidence in my writing skills, I'm still anxious every time I time I put up a new story.

Fandom friends - and enemies - have certainly contributed to my growth as a writer, as well as growth as an indivdual. I've had the privilege of meeting some incredible folk on this journey, people I would never have encountered in my so-called real life. And being part of a community that's supportive and nurturing in a productive kind of way (like this one) is both fun and exciting, and for me, really helps to keep the muse awake and active.

You mean Strunk & White isn't the arbiter of good writing, or at least proper style, anymore? Shows how much behind the times I am...And I'm still not terrific at the fine points (or even not-so-fine) of English Grammar.

What has made me a good writer, or, to be more personally accurate, an improved writer?

Mostly writing - freelance nonfiction for pay, fanfiction for fun. And also listening to constructive criticism - some of it is justified and I can learn from it.

I have taken three courses in creative writing in my life - one in high school, which didn't help much (the teacher wasn't particularly good, and neither was my writing), one in high school (which didn't teach me much, but was quite enjoyable and gave me good grades) and one in grad school (in which the teacher, a kindly and erudite older professor, used Strunk&White as the arbiter of grammar/style, and gave a talk or a comment about the importance of 'flow' that has stuck in my head for decades). The last one was the most influential, but none helped me as much as the act of putting pencil to paper, or hands on keyboard, and shoving off the metaphorical dock.

In evalulating the feedback on my fanfiction, I suppose I look at the intelligence, age, and skill set of the critics. It's not just what they like, or how much I like their writing; it's also how perceptive they are when they read my stuff; if they're catching at least some of the themes/motifs I put into it, helping me (if beta-ing) with a problem or dilemma I had in the writing, and if I also respect their command of language and writing. (and 'respect' does not always equate with 'love')

[tanis]

Raksha - I suspect (though I am by means an expert on the subject) the new arbiters of good writing are books like The Deluxe Transitive Vampire, and Eats, Shoots & Leaves. Very little genre writing, in this era, would pass the strictest Strunk and White grammar and punctuation tests. And I don't mean fan fic writing.

Elfscribe - Tanis also said she owed a lot to her fandom enemies as well as friends and I'd like to hear more about that or maybe that's for a locked post. lol.

Nah, no locked posts necessary. I have little experience with negative criticism (beyond the Rotating Nine Nazgul at the HASA archive) but I've run smack up against some folks who had very different ideas about what kind of feedback should be allowed on lists and how list members should be allowed to present it.

There are some still-smoking friendships over on the Stargate side of the fence, the fires of which will never be rekindled due to an attitude of entitlement (I felt) because these folks happened to have been in the fandom for a long time and thought it should be their way and only their way. I disagreed and since it was my list, they were invited to accept the rules on the list or leave. They left.

In a blaze of righteous indignation.

I waved goodbye and mourned the loss of both mentors and friends, but liked myself better for not knuckling under because I lived in awe of every one of them.

[erulisse]

Tanis - It is nice to know that someone in your area of Barad-dur actually has scruples and isn't afraid to exercise them.

- Erulisse (one L)
Hoping that Ky will quickly post enough to get the red away from me and to her instead.

[kymahalei]

Apr 16, 2011 19:45:21 GMT -6 erulisse said:

Tanis - It is nice to know that someone in your area of Barad-dur actually has scruples and isn't afraid to exercise them.

- Erulisse (one L)
Hoping that Ky will quickly post enough to get the red away from me and to her instead.

Don't you wish? Darn, this is going to set me one post closer....

Elleth, I just spent a good chunk of my afternoon poking all those blue words in your entry. Clarion was a collage of ideas. I loved the "How to Steal" link. I looked up Atlantis on Amazon. Yep, a book I'm definitely NOT going to read. Gaiman's essay was thoughtful. What a feast of good material. Still lacking is The Graveyard Book. I hope to get to the library to check it out tomorrow. I'm always interested to see what good reads look like to others. Was it the read aloud aspect that drew you in, or are there other merits of the book I should look out for?