Mithril in Quenya

[russandol]

Help!!

Mairon/Annatar/Sauron likes his jewellery, as you know. And because he is such a perfectionist about his favourite craft and so precise about the names of things, I need to know how the metal mithril would be called in Quenya or, for a double prize, in Valarin.

Additionally, is there any source that tell us when mithril was first discovered? I need to find out if there is any reason why it might NOT be known at the beginning of the Second Age, even as a most precious rarity. Surely there must have been other places where it was found well before Moria in the times of Eregion?

Back to the Quenya form - My understanding is that the Sindarin word is formed of two parts, which translate as "grey" and "radiance". The roots, as per the Etymologies are:

MITH- N mith white fog, wet mist; cf. Mithrim [RINGI]. [Later addition: mith = grey.]

RIL- glitter (cf. SIL., THIL, GIL). Q rilma glittering light; nlya glittering, brilliance. Cf. Silmarille, Silmaril (pl. Silmarilli), N Silevril (*silimarille).

So, if I turn the MITH- stem into something like "misë" (post þ) in Quenya, I come up with "miseril" or "miserilma".

Now, is this half-reasonable? Or is there a proper word for it that I failed to find?

I won't even try Valarin, but if someone does, let me know.

[pandemonium]

Because this query implies more Eönwë and Mairon may be forthcoming from you, I'll try to maintain my dignity and resist squealing like a little girl. Btw, I haven't forgotten the current drafts -- I am simply scattered, discombobulated, uncertain, i.e., no news.

I like miseril myself, and your derivation makes sense to me, but I'm a linguistic hack. I think Darth has been eaten by a bear or a loon or whatever frightening creatures live up north.

[russandol]

Jun 3, 2010 18:01:39 GMT -6 pandemonium said:

Because this query implies more Eönwë and Mairon may be forthcoming from you, I'll try to maintain my dignity and resist squealing like a little girl.

Correct. And because I have chosen to make Eönwë and Mairon speak Quenya names and words when required, and perhaps the odd Valarin one, mithril does not fit. Unless someone can tell me that it was discovered and named by the Sindar. But if the Noldor were the renowned smiths they were, I am sure the metal was known from the start or discovered by them, like the precious stones, even if it could not be found easily.

PE17 gives both sinda and miþ as grey, but miþ is "paler, a 'luminous grey'".

So I would not go for "sindaril". Perhaps "misaril" (as in "silm-'" to "silmaril") but I prefer it with "e", for some reason.

Darth, are you there or did the bears get you?

[erulisse]

I have to agree, miseril seems to fit better the definition of glittering mist. I can't see any reason why the metal would not be available in Aman as well as ME and earlier than the discovery of Moria. But just as platinum has a greater rarity than gold, so mitril/miseril also has rarity. The strength of platinum, and by extension mithril/miseril is it's ability to be very thin with great tensile strength. It also has a very high melt point, and jewelers who work with it have to use different tools and torches because of the characteristics of the metal. It would be very hard to work with the type of torches and furnaces that are likely used in Aman, but Feanor...his skill level could have allowed this. I work with gold and silver, but have never been courageous/monetarily rich/foolish enough to work with platinum. Maybe some day....I've always wanted a mithril/miseril ring.

- Erulisse (one L)

[pandemonium]

Jun 4, 2010 5:13:36 GMT -6 erulisse said:

I have to agree, miseril seems to fit better the definition of glittering mist. I can't see any reason why the metal would not be available in Aman as well as ME and earlier than the discovery of Moria. But just as platinum has a greater rarity than gold, so mitril/miseril also has rarity. The strength of platinum, and by extension mithril/miseril is it's ability to be very thin with great tensile strength. It also has a very high melt point, and jewelers who work with it have to use different tools and torches because of the characteristics of the metal. It would be very hard to work with the type of torches and furnaces that are likely used in Aman, but Feanor...his skill level could have allowed this. I work with gold and silver, but have never been courageous/monetarily rich/foolish enough to work with platinum. Maybe some day....I've always wanted a mithril/miseril ring.

- Erulisse (one L)

Heh. Morgeth Moreth and I had an interesting discussion about iron-mithril alloys, and true to form, she came up with phase change graphs to determine the eutectic point of such an admixture. This further prompted a discussion of the valence state of mithril, which is reminiscent in certain respects of titanium. I'm certainly not the first among Tolkienian nerdoscenti who has made that observation. So, if one is to pay homage to Tolkien's attempts to tie our primary world more fully into his secondary one in a scientific sense (e.g. the round earth co-eval with sun and moon versus the flat earth and sun and moon from fruit), and that mithril is something akin to titanium, one would logically expect it to be found in more than one place. IIRC, there are implications in canon, such as they are, that mithril was found in Aman and Númenor.

[russandol]

Thanks Erulisse (one L) and Pandë, I am glad you both agree with my way of thinking about mithril being there all along, which is what prompted the question in the first place.

If Fëanor could work with mithril, so could Mairon. He knew, after all, all there is to know about the mithril-steel alloy. Ask Sámaril for details...

Now I only need someone who knows Quenya *** where is the Supreme Ultimate Lizard when he is not busy with the tax season??? *** to tell me if my concocted word is any good or if there is a proper alternative.

miseril, miserillë, misaril? Not sure if it needs an accent somewhere, either. Oh, what fun...

[erulisse]

Hmmm, titanium never occurred to me. I have always envisioned mithril as being platinum. When did titanium start to be worked? I'll have to do a bit of research. I know that platinum was used in the early 1900's so that would be contemporary with JRRT. I'm not as sure about titanium.

- Erulisse (one L)

[russandol]

Hi Erulisse (one L).
I found this page from the University of Cambridge, it may interest you.
www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/titanium.movies/titanium.html
It has some interesting stuff, including videos! I studied a little bit of metallurgy (mainly steel allloys) at uni and this brings back memories of those distant times.

Then I did the unthinkable - googled "mithril" and "quenya", just to find out what was out there...

Wikipedia categorically says: "The name mithril comes from two words in Sindarin — mith, meaning "grey", and ril meaning "glitter". The metal's Quenya name is mistarillë. Mithril was also called "true-silver" or "Moria-silver"; the Dwarves had their own secret name for it."

Well, I agree to the two part name. but where did the "mistarillë" come from, when there is no bibliography as to the language sources? "mista-" sounds vaguely like my "misë". Found it translated in the Letters (thank you Quettaparma) also as "grey", as in the grey of autumn leaves (?).

Then in another place I found "Sindarillë". But I definitely won't go for this one, because it is the "non-luminous" grey, sorry.

What's with the "-rillë" ending instead of plain "-ril"? It makes it look the part better, with the "ë" and all...

[pandemonium]

Jun 5, 2010 6:14:55 GMT -6 russandol said:

Hi Erulisse (one L).
I found this page from the University of Cambridge, it may interest you.
www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/titanium.movies/titanium.html
It has some interesting stuff, including videos! I studied a little bit of metallurgy (mainly steel allloys) at uni and this brings back memories of those distant times.

Hexagonal close-packed crystal structure...

*Swoooons*

Also, one-L-Erulissë, have a look at The History of Titatnium. The metal was discovered in the late 1700's and manufactured in its pure metallic form in 1910. With regard to what Tolkien conceived mithril to be, well, who knows? Likely as not, he might have waved the wizard's wand as he did with lembas (from Letter 210 to Forrest Ackerman):

No analysis in any laboratory would discover chemical properties of lembas that made it superior to other cakes of wheat-meal.

Thus we might offer the conjecture that JRRT would sniff at any speculations regarding mithril and make a similar remark as above. Mithril is "magic". But then again, JRRT wrote in his draft letter to Peter Hastings (Letter 153)

The tale is after all in the ultimate analysis a tale, a piece of literature, intended to have literary effect, and not real history. That the device adopted, that of giving its setting an historical air or feeling, and (an illusion of?) three dimensions, is successful, seems shown by the fact that several correspondents have treated it in the same way – according to their different points of interest or knowledge: i.e. as if it were a report of 'real' times and places, which my ignorance or carelessness had misrepresented in places or failed to describe properly in others. Its economics, science, artefacts, religion, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy.[Emphasis by Pandë]

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much).

From the standpoint of a scholarly discussion of canon, what JRRT directly knew of contemporary and historical metallurgy might be germane, but from a fan fiction/interpretative standpoint, the quoted text above essentially says that speculation on the writer's part is permissible and even desirable.

Wikipedia categorically says: "The name mithril comes from two words in Sindarin — mith, meaning "grey", and ril meaning "glitter". The metal's Quenya name is mistarillë. Mithril was also called "true-silver" or "Moria-silver"; the Dwarves had their own secret name for it."

Well, I agree to the two part name. but where did the "mistarillë" come from, when there is no bibliography as to the language sources?

As Obelix would say, "Zigackly!" Looks like a fanon construct to me. I've found nothing in Parma Eldalamberon or my other meager linguistic sources, e.g., Qenya Lexicon, that provide evidence that JRRT came up with that word, but I could be mistaken.

What's with the "-rillë" ending instead of plain "-ril"? It makes it look the part better, with the "ë" and all...

I like your foreshortened version. Rolls off the tongue perfectly well and bears a strong relationship to the more familiar Sindarin term.

[russandol]

Jun 5, 2010 7:29:26 GMT -6 pandemonium said:

I like your foreshortened version. Rolls off the tongue perfectly well and bears a strong relationship to the more familiar Sindarin term.

Yes, miseril is also my favourite so far, but I am happy for someone to slap it away in favour of a better alternative. I wouldn't dream of putting badly spelled words in Sauron's mouth or it could get soooo nasty.

[elfscribe]

I asked Malinornë who is very knowledgeable about Quenya about your mithril in Quenya question. I know I already told you her answer, but thought I might post here for general edification.
Mal said the following:

There's no attested Quenya word for mithril, so I'd say it's a matter of taste which of the suggested translations to use.

I've found a possible source for mistarille (shorter form: mistaril) ; the Elfling (Elvish linguistics) Yahoo group apparently discussed this in 2002. Others can of course have come to the same conclusion, as mistarille is simply the words for mith+ril in Quenya put together. Another Tolklang group suggested sindarille, using another word for grey. I prefer mista as it's closer to mith.

I'd use mistaril. Hope this helps!

[russandol]

Aug 1, 2010 21:24:38 GMT -6 elfscribe said:

I asked Malinornë who is very knowledgeable about Quenya about your mithril in Quenya question. I know I already told you her answer, but thought I might post here for general edification.
Mal said the following:

There's no attested Quenya word for mithril, so I'd say it's a matter of taste which of the suggested translations to use.

I've found a possible source for mistarille (shorter form: mistaril) ; the Elfling (Elvish linguistics) Yahoo group apparently discussed this in 2002. Others can of course have come to the same conclusion, as mistarille is simply the words for mith+ril in Quenya put together. Another Tolklang group suggested sindarille, using another word for grey. I prefer mista as it's closer to mith.

I'd use mistaril. Hope this helps!

I have already decided to go for mistarille (with the two dots on the e, which I can't get with this bl@@dy keyboard). Thank you, elfscribe, and give malinorne my thanks too!!