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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 0:20:47 GMT -6
Post by kimberleighe on Jan 15, 2012 0:20:47 GMT -6
So, I am unsure if I am confusing myself when it comes to Lindon. From what I understand, Lindon is the name for the general area between the sea and Ered Luin. I got that! What I am unsure about is Mithlond, Forlond and Harlond.
1. Are all three of these city/harbors? I understand Mithlond is the Grey Havens, but are the other two simply harbors or small military-like settlements?
2. Now, Cirdan founded Mithlond and it is under his care. I take that to mean Gil-galad did not reside there. Right? He would have been at Forlond (and I read somewhere that Celeborn was in Harlond?)
I don't know why this isn't making sense to me, but I am just looking for clarification. I want a firm grasp on my geography before I try to write about it!
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mariamaria
Pretty Good Sneech
Thangorodrim's Hospitality Specialist
Posts: 104
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 2:23:21 GMT -6
Post by mariamaria on Jan 15, 2012 2:23:21 GMT -6
Hmm.. according to the LOTR Wiki Harlond means "South Haven" and Forlond "North Haven" in Sindarin. As I am crap on Sindarin and I often come crying for help to the arm of my fellow Lizards, I can't tell you if it is right or not. For what I understand, Lindon was a rather large region and it was divided into North and South, Forlindon and Harlindon and Forlond and Harlond are havens located in these regions along the north and southern banks of the river Lhûn. I looked at a map and saw that both Forlond and Harlond were further west than Mithlond. Whether Gil Galad lived there or not, well, I am not sure. I am not sure what was the principal seat in Lindon. As the whole region was established during the Second Age, I am sure he went there. Whether or not he left it for Cirdan to rule it alone, I don't know. www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gulfoflune.html
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 6:58:01 GMT -6
Post by russandol on Jan 15, 2012 6:58:01 GMT -6
I want a firm grasp on my geography before I try to write about it! I had a similar problem a while ago. As well as browsing Tolkien's writings I found it incredibly useful to look at the maps of Karen Wynn Fonstad "Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth".
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 8:25:57 GMT -6
Post by surgicalsteel on Jan 15, 2012 8:25:57 GMT -6
Second what Russa said - Fonstad's Atlas is a fantastic resource. That being said - from the map, it sort of looks as is Harlond and Forlond are separate locations from Mithlond. I don't think that Tolkien was ever completely explicit as to whether they were individual cities or different parts of the same larger settlement or exactly what they were. He refers to them as the 'Grey Havens,' plural, which I personally think gives you wiggle room as a fanfic author to imagine the region in a variety of different ways: one city and two outlying harbors/'naval bases;' one city, one 'naval base,' and one shipyard; three cities, three 'sister cities' that all see themselves as part of one entitiy, etc. Confusing matters even more, you've got 'Harlond and Forlond' in Gondor, too - quays on the Anduin in the small strip of land between the river and the Rammas Echor (the outlying wall which surrounded the Pelennor Fields).
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 10:24:19 GMT -6
Post by pandemonium on Jan 15, 2012 10:24:19 GMT -6
Third on Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. It resides on my bookshelf, and I often refer to it. However, Fonstad's maps involve fannish interpretation on her part. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
And what Steel said is spot-on. Tolkien was not explicit about specific locations within Lindon. Here's a snippet that Tolkien wrote in his letter (131, Letters of JRRT, ed. H. Carpenter) to Milton Waldman:
We hear of a lingering kingdom, in the extreme North-west more or less in what was left in the old lands of The Silmarillion, under Gilgalad; and of other settlements, such as Imladris (Rivendell) near Elrond; and a great one at Eregion at the Western feet of the Misty Mountains, adjacent to the Mines of Moria, the major realm of the Dwarves in the Second Age.
So "kingdom" allows for plenty of interpretation. I'd be inclined to see all three "londs" as port towns/cities.
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 10:55:06 GMT -6
Post by russandol on Jan 15, 2012 10:55:06 GMT -6
I'd be inclined to see all three "londs" as port towns/cities. That was my take, too.
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 11:39:43 GMT -6
Post by kimberleighe on Jan 15, 2012 11:39:43 GMT -6
Ok, so I'm hearing it really is within my ability to make an argument for what this looks like without being ooc.
SurgicalSteel, I really like your idea of a city, a naval base and shipyard. May I build off of that idea?
I suppose my whole question really revolved around being sure that I do not place the high-king somewhere he shouldn't be. If he's supposed to be in Lindon, I have quite a bit of room to situate him in.
Thank you for the help!
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 12:29:09 GMT -6
Post by elleth on Jan 15, 2012 12:29:09 GMT -6
There actually is a bit of info in the Unfinished Tales, in footnote 2 to the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, saying that Harlindon was primarily peopled by Sindar and a fief(? I'm only having the German edition to hand, this may not be the original wording) of Celeborn's, though when that was is unclear - either near the end of the First Age, or after the fall of Eregion in the Second. Appendix B of LotR (in The Second Age) expressively states that Hope that helps clarify some things - and it doesn't rule out other ideas in this thread. Personally speaking I'd call Forlindon and Harlindon different provinces of the realm of Lindon, and it seems a bit illogical to name Forlond and Harlond North-Haven and South-Haven if they weren't port cities of some kind - perhaps, due to the similarity in names, those might be the capitals and/or seats of (local) government of each province.
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 14:09:51 GMT -6
Post by surgicalsteel on Jan 15, 2012 14:09:51 GMT -6
If you like the idea of city plus naval base plus shipyard, I say run with it. A lot of naval bases end up essentially becoming small cities - ditto shipyards if they're busy. The men on the ships or building them need places to sleep, food, medical care, etc.
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 15:48:32 GMT -6
Post by kimberleighe on Jan 15, 2012 15:48:32 GMT -6
If you like the idea of city plus naval base plus shipyard, I say run with it. A lot of naval bases end up essentially becoming small cities - ditto shipyards if they're busy. The men on the ships or building them need places to sleep, food, medical care, etc. And see, that's what I'm thinking. I'm leaning towards Harlond serving as a trade central. I see Forlond perhaps as acting more in a military aspect, but most soldiers will have families. The early second age was pretty peaceful, so elves would have married, had kids, etc.
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 16:47:43 GMT -6
Post by surgicalsteel on Jan 15, 2012 16:47:43 GMT -6
Yes, exactly. I'm former military (Air Force), and most guys on our base were married. So you'll need housing, and the families will need occupations. Materiel (intentionally spelled that way, former part of Air Force Materiel Command) would be one thing - making sure the military members are clothed and fed and have appropriate arms and armor. Health care would be another, both for soldiers and their families. I think I like where you're going with this!
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Lindon
Jan 15, 2012 21:13:52 GMT -6
Post by kimberleighe on Jan 15, 2012 21:13:52 GMT -6
Yes, exactly. I'm former military (Air Force), and most guys on our base were married. So you'll need housing, and the families will need occupations. Materiel (intentionally spelled that way, former part of Air Force Materiel Command) would be one thing - making sure the military members are clothed and fed and have appropriate arms and armor. Health care would be another, both for soldiers and their families. I think I like where you're going with this! I am going to end up writing a novel if you keep this up! I am super inspired now. You killed my writer's block. Exalted!
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