Kenaz
New Sneech 
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
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Post by Kenaz on Jan 20, 2012 16:24:52 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me how the "house" system in Gondolin worked? Aside from obvious ties of kinship through blood or marriage, or particular affinities (Duilin's house being the best archers, Rog's house the refuge of smiths, many of whom had been thralls, etc.) what dictated your membership (for lack of a better term) to a particular house?
Did all citizens of Gondolin align themselves with a particular house, or only the nobility? Is it a fixed caste system, or was there a bourgeois class of social climbers who could buy their way up?
If I have a character who is essentially born into a family of skilled craftsmen, but really wants to be, say, an archer, could he apprentice himself to Duilin and thereby become a member of the House of the Swallow?
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Post by oshun on Jan 20, 2012 17:33:23 GMT -6
I am no expert on Gondolin except for amassing a whole lot of information about banners and heraldry. I never read much that described how one came to be in a particular house. (My main sources outside of the much trimmed back version in The Silmarillion have been Tehta's wonderful Glorfindel/Ecthelion stories The Book of Lost Tales and Unfinished Tales.) I couldn't even figure out if they pre-dated Middle-earth and went back to Valinor or if they were wholly newly formed. Also, I wondered if they were completely made up of Noldor or included some Sindar also.
Anyway, maybe someone will pop up here as an expert. As far as my fiction goes, I just made things up when I ran out of canon.
You might check my Glorfindel bio on the SWG. It has a lot of footnotes. Sources I may have forgotten. (I felt kind of embarrassed writing that one, because Gondolin has not been a focus of major research for me.)
I personally like to think, as a materialist at heart (being determines consciousness and that sort of thing), that Elven societies, even the most rigid and hidebound of those like Gondolin, most likely would have more democratic practices than one would have found in the Middle Ages. Taking that perspective, one might presume that someone could work their way into a noble House of Gondolin.
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Post by elleth on Jan 20, 2012 18:09:23 GMT -6
As far as I'm aware isn't all that much info on the houses in the text and it takes some close reading to figure out possible answers. From the Book of Lost Tales Fall of Gondolin, it does seem that the members of the houses banded together over similarities as you mentioned - Ecthelion's house being skilled in music, Rog's that of the Smiths, some of which in that version of the text escaped Angband, Duilin being tied to archery, Maeglin to the miners etc, so perhaps some sort of guild system? (Considering that Gondolin was intended to be a mirror or Tirion that might be possible; we know there was at least the guild of the Lambengolmor (linguists) in Tirion, headed by Feanor). Each of the Houses also must have been had some governmental responsibilty (considering Turgon called a council), and with the staffing of the Gates and maintaining a part of the military force of the city. In the Fall of the Gondolin the house of the King essentially seems to have been a kind of bodyguard for Turgon personally and didn't join the fighting proper in favour of protecting the tower. As for affiliations, Maeglin and Tuor as newcomers to the city are the obvious places to look - Maeglin establishing the house of the Mole, and Tuor (who would probably fit the idea of a social climber, getting the favour of the King and then marrying Idril) that of the White Wing, so the establishment of new houses was possible at least for members of the royal family. Both of them must have had followers (we know Maeglin had a part of the miners in the house of the Mole), so either there was an unaffiliated portion of society that could join themselves to the newly established ones, or the established members were able to change their affiliation and join a different house. In fact it seems from the Lost Tales that Tuor specifically established the force of the White Wing by enticing elite members of the other houses into his service. Hope this helps with your own conclusions, somewhat.  |
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Post by russandol on Jan 20, 2012 18:28:18 GMT -6
As far as my fiction goes, I just made things up when I ran out of canon. Having just browsed the "Book of Lost Tales", it's all about the emblems / colours and the attire of the warriors from each house as they prepare to face the forces of Melko, as well as some information about the skills of their members, as elleth has said above. I could find nothing about the social structure of the houses. I'd say you're safe being creative like oshun recommends! |
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Post by pandemonium on Jan 20, 2012 19:11:54 GMT -6
Kenaz, just out of curiosity, what's the nature of your access to the source texts? That is, do you own some or all of The History of Middle-earth? Unfinished Tales?
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Kenaz
New Sneech
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
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Post by Kenaz on Jan 20, 2012 21:57:35 GMT -6
I have a copy of UT, and I think somewhere I have a copy of BoLT, but I have no HoME. (Punny! HA! ;D)
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Post by erulisse on Jan 21, 2012 4:57:45 GMT -6
There is really nothing specific about the houses of Gondolin, and I've been looking for information (constructive and other) on the Hidden City for several years. It is my personal opinion that people could ally themselves with the house that seemed best suited to their abilities, rather like being accepted into an apprenticeship. It is the only thing that I feel would be sensible for the more esoteric houses such as the musicians of Salgant. I assume that a child having musical talent would be admitted to that house, despite his/her relative social standing.
On the other hand, if you take each of the houses as a branch of Gondolin's military, things may be set up differently. I look at things, in that case, as being numeric in basis. Each house would train in their specialty (I'm not really sure where Salgant's house fits within a spectrum of weaponry) and I could easily see shifting of members from house to house if a talent for one weapon over another is evidenced. Also, it would be possible that Turgon may want a more equitable distribution of numbers between the houses in this case, and want the archers to have X number of people and the clubs and slings to have Y number of people. Again, there is nothing firm written on this so walk that road as you see fit.
- Erulisse (one L)
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Kenaz
New Sneech
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
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Post by Kenaz on Jan 21, 2012 11:38:28 GMT -6
...so perhaps some sort of guild system? (Considering that Gondolin was intended to be a mirror or Tirion that might be possible; we know there was at least the guild of the Lambengolmor (linguists) in Tirion, headed by Feanor). Excellent-- that's pretty much what I was hoping for. Or, at least, that's sort of the direction I was planning on heading, so it's good to know that it doesn't feel entirely off the mark. Each of the Houses also must have been had some governmental responsibilty (considering Turgon called a council), and with the staffing of the Gates and maintaining a part of the military force of the city. Yes, and is some cases there is a direct correlation between the House and it's military role-- such as Ecthelion and the Gate of Steel-- and in others, an implied or potential correlation--the Gate of Gold could very well be under the purview of Glorfindel, or the Gate of Silver might be Duilin's responsibility as it is described as being staffed by archers... As for affiliations, Maeglin and Tuor as newcomers to the city are the obvious places to look - Maeglin establishing the house of the Mole, and Tuor (who would probably fit the idea of a social climber, getting the favour of the King and then marrying Idril) that of the White Wing, so the establishment of new houses was possible at least for members of the royal family. Both of them must have had followers (we know Maeglin had a part of the miners in the house of the Mole), so either there was an unaffiliated portion of society that could join themselves to the newly established ones, or the established members were able to change their affiliation and join a different house. In fact it seems from the Lost Tales that Tuor specifically established the force of the White Wing by enticing elite members of the other houses into his service. Ah! Now, this is great! I had been overlooking the fact that both Tuor and Maeglin founded their houses after Gondolin had already been established-- this is indeed a very helpful clue. It does give the sense that there is some mobility within the houses, which, along with the guild concept, gives me plenty of possibilities that wouldn't seem far-fetched. Excellent sleuthing, Elleth. Many thanks for this! |
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Post by elleth on Jan 21, 2012 18:58:12 GMT -6
You're welcome, glad this helped! *dons pipe and deerstalker*
Oh, excellent. I did notice that the Gates were rather particular in their design, but didn't think to make that connection, but it sounds quite likely, also considering not only troops, but also the possible correlation of House heraldry and Gates. However, it is also implied in the UT that the staffing duties may have rotated over time because Ecthelion is clearly stated to have been at this time (Tuor's arrival) the Gate Warden.
Just as clarification, Tuor definitely did found the White Wing toward the end of Gondolin, when Idril was growing uncertain about Maeglin - as for Maeglin, it's never stated outright that he founded the House of the Mole, but strongly implied in the Silmarillion in Of Maeglin, again mentioning he gathered smiths and miners around him, so that is likely.
Another word on upward mobility - it really doesn't seem that far-fetched to assume it's quite possible in Gondolin. Húrin, Huor, Maeglin and Tuor are all new arrivals in the city and all manage to rise to some power or at least favour with the king (and city folk) rather quickly, mostly via work and learning, which does imply an open mindset to me. (Not to mention that I'm fond of a meritocracy idea for the Noldor, anyway, but that is headcanon). In the Poems Early Abandoned, there also is a line that touts Gondolin as a sanctuary of sorts, and just seems at odds with the idea that there was a completely rigid caste/class system:
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