|
|
Post by kimberleighe on Apr 3, 2012 9:52:05 GMT -6
So, within the Anairë story I have created a game that's a cross between soccer and American football. However, I need a name for it. I was curious to know if there were names already for certain games in Quenya, or if it might be better to simply name it in english.
Also, and this is my silly question, is Eärwen the quenya form of Galadriel's mother's name? Do we have a teleri form of it?
Thank you for the help!
|
|
|
|
Post by elleth on Apr 3, 2012 14:48:07 GMT -6
Games I'm not sure about, perhaps DF or Randy could help... but Eärwen is the Quenya form of the name. The Telerin wordlist on Ardalambion gives no original form, but it offers enough material to perhaps build one.
Gaiar is Telerin for sea, and apparently Telerin phonology has Q Olwë > Olue, so perhaps you could go the extra step and tack on an n, yielding Gaiaruen? Which admittedly looks a bit unattractive in print. Hrm.
|
|
|
|
Post by kimberleighe on Apr 3, 2012 15:20:50 GMT -6
elleth: Hrm indeed. Perhaps I am overthinking this! randy: Foccer indeed! I must tell you I giggled to myself at that, so thank you for the laugh. I simply wondered about the Telerin version since I recall reading that Finrod commonly went by the Telerin form of his name. It seems interesting to me that Eärwen wouldn't also have a comparable translation.
|
|
|
|
Post by elleth on Apr 3, 2012 19:16:36 GMT -6
Since Eärwen never left Valinor, and only Quenya was spoken there, there's no real need to have a 'Telerin' name for her. The Teleri of Alqualonde spoke Quenya too. I'm aware that they spoke Quenya due to their relations with the Noldor, but why would they abandon their own language? It must have had some degree of influence for Telperion being Telperion, not Tyelperion... |
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Apr 4, 2012 7:11:42 GMT -6
I did not know the Telerin of Alqualonde spoke Quenya. I'm curious about the source for that. I am not up on language questions, I admit. The farthest thing from an expert! Quite the contrary. I always assumed the Telerin spoke their own language based upon this citation relating to the names of Finafin and Eärwen's sons Finrod and Angrod: The names Findaráto and Angaráto were Telerin in form (for Finarfin spoke the language of his wife’s people); and they proved easy to render into Sindarin in form and sense, because of the close relationship of the Telerin of Aman to the language of their kin, the Sindar of Beleriand, in spite of the great changes that it had undergone in Middle-earth. (Artafindë and Artanga would have been their more natural Quenya forms, . . .) --The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Shibboleth of Fëanor I would not doubt at all that they spoke Quenya as well though. |
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Apr 4, 2012 11:48:52 GMT -6
No source. Just my observation that Quenya, Sindarin, and all the other languages like Nandorin and Telerin are simply divergent forms of the same mother-tongue, the degree of the divergence depending on how long the various populations had been separated from one another. How long did it take the Teleri to reach their ultimate destination at Alqualonde and then how long did the two dialects have to merge with each other again? I haven't a clue. My chronological skills are challenged by keeping track of actual documented dates and I could not begin to extrapolate pre-First Age dates from the scattered sources. I hear things like years of the Trees vs. years of the Sun and I feel like I will have a seizure. A lot of time had passed from when the Telerin peoples found themselves on their separate path in M-e, with lots of stops along the way, and then more long passages of time before they ended up somewhere in or near Aman and later still when Alqualonde was founded. Time enough for separation of languages. I cannot even speculate about what would be time enough to re-merge those languages or anything about that concept. That is way out of my league. Never ever discussed it with anyone, whereas clearly you have. (My eyes glaze over when I read these naming discussions here.) I just assumed when I read that reference to "Finarfin spoke the language of his wife's people," that said language existed and was actually in use at the time they were naming their kids. I figured people who ran back and forth between Alqualonde and Tirion (like Feanor, et al.) were bi-lingual and vice versa, that Finafin's wife spoke Quenya as well as her own tongue. P.S. Just looking at Sindarin and Quenya they look like two languages to me. A lot farther apart than Spanish and Portuguese, for example, which are definitely considered languages and not dialects of the same. I think he was trying to say that Telerin as spoken in Aman was closer to Sindarin than Quenya was in that section of the Shibboleth of Feanor that I cited. But I am absolutely not qualified to even have an opinion about those languages outside of my ability to read a direct citation and think I understand it. |
|
|
|
Post by randy on Apr 4, 2012 12:38:27 GMT -6
I should probably stay out of discussions that concern the Silmarillion or the HoME.
|
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Apr 4, 2012 12:51:37 GMT -6
I should probably stay out of discussions that concern the Silmarillion or the HoME. Not because of me! |
|
|
|
Post by elleth on Apr 4, 2012 15:10:34 GMT -6
Nor because of me - my apologies, I didn't mean to belittle anybody, I was just being curious because there definitely are people who are far more versed in various elvish languages than I am.
And your observations aren't wrong - Primitive Eldarin is the common ancestor for all the languages the Elves starting on the Journey developed, and if Tolkien's idea of change in Middle-earth being both quicker and less controlled than linguistic development in Aman is anything to go by, Nandorin would have to be the most archaic and divergent, since they abstained from going further at the Misty Mountains already, etc, continuing on a westward scale. Doriathrim Sindarin was fairly archaic only because they were settled and safe behind Melian's girdle, iirc.
And as for the separation of the Noldor and Teleri, the timeline Clotho123 compiled form HoMe says this:
And seeing how we're talking Years of the Trees here, that is ample time for the two languages to diverge. I'm not sure there ever was an active merging of Telerin and Quenya as there was of Sindarin and Quenya by being cooped up in Gondolin for centuries, but then I think Oshun made good points about bilingualism.
|
|
|
|
Post by kimberleighe on Apr 4, 2012 17:28:11 GMT -6
Where is this fantastic timeline? I would love to see it!
|
|
|
|
Post by elleth on Apr 4, 2012 20:16:24 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by kimberleighe on Apr 4, 2012 21:11:33 GMT -6
Elleth! This is super-wonderful! I have never seen it there in the reference library! Even though now I'm worried that my story timeline is waaay off....
|
|
