That's MY throne, dammit!: Kingship in the 4th age

[crowdaughter]

I remember reading that too, but since JRRT says one thing in one place and the opposite in another -- why should Finwe have to do that? Because he'd had the temerity to marry twice? And hadn't Miss "I'm so exhausted from bearing Feanor; leave me alone" had her mind wiped and been given a job as handmaiden to the Valar? Why should Indis have to be all alone until Ambar Metta?

Hm. Even with the part Rhapsody quoted, I would drive this question one step further, heretic that I am: if Finwe has now accepted to stay in Mandos forever, why should Indis not marry another time? And what of the wifes of the sons of Feanor? Or of Nerdanel, herself? Would Nerdanel be allowed to remarry, if she desired so? Feanaro is bound to stay in Mandos until Ambar Mettar, after all.

However, as for the original question, if the many kings of the Noldor got rehoused in Aman, and if the same was true for Thingol and Oropher and Amdir, I would think that the most likely solution for them would probably be to go all and found some little courts of their own. I cannot easily see them step back into the second line, again. Jael wrote a believable scene, in Wayward Sons, with Oropher abdicating, but I have to say I thought Thranduil incredibly lucky that daddy did not want the kingship anymore; I would have expected Thranduil to chafe under his rule, otherwise, sooner or later. The same would be true for Thranduil, or any of the Noldor kings, if they came to Aman and were expected to fit in and follow the rule of those who stayed there, again. I could see some eye-rolling happening, there.

[Kenaz]

Holy crap, that is some seriously Biblical verbiage, Rhapsody! I had never heard that Finwe stayed before-- but then, my knowledge of HoME is both superficial and scatter-shot.

I also find that whole passage deeply dissatisfying, but perhaps only because JRRT's personal morals and biases are so readily apparent. It feels less like a bit of the Middle-Earth legendarium, and more like a piece of fictionalized catechism. (which, I suppose, it rather was.)

That said, I was glad to find a smidge of canonical support in favor of literal reembodying, as I always thought the idea of them being reborn into infancy and having to live a whole second life to be strange and unnecessarily complicated.

I really like the idea that *none* of them are too eager to take back the throne. It kind of reminds me of this game we used to play at camp after meals where someone would lay their finger next to their nose, and then someone else would notice and do the same thing, and so on and so forth until the last person at the table realized they hadn't held their finger up, and they were "It" for doing dishes.

[Moreth]

LOL! I'm completely with you, Kenaz!

I always get stalled out at this bit: "...and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwe is at times permitted to look upon."

Because that makes it all okay, then! Yeah...!

I also like the way his marriage to Indis was already on the rocks.

[jael]

That said, I was glad to find a smidge of canonical support in favor of literal reembodying, as I always thought the idea of them being reborn into infancy and having to live a whole second life to be strange and unnecessarily complicated.

I think the Athrabeth gives evidence for re-housing too. That's what I based my understanding from.

[randy]

Holy crap, that is some seriously Biblical verbiage, Rhapsody! I had never heard that Finwe stayed before-- but then, my knowledge of HoME is both superficial and scatter-shot.

I also find that whole passage deeply dissatisfying, but perhaps only because JRRT's personal morals and biases are so readily apparent. It feels less like a bit of the Middle-Earth legendarium, and more like a piece of fictionalized catechism. (which, I suppose, it rather was.)

With all due respect, that was a boatload of pretty language and imagery that's supposed to make us feel good about a guy really getting the shaft. Finwe stays in Mandos forever so his first wife can live again, then she turns around and comes back in after a short time. And Finwe is 'allowed' to see her pretty tapestries! Oh joy!

The other poor schumck is Earendil, who gets to sail the heavens for all eternity with a glowing object strapped to his head -- all from trying to help Middle-earth. You can tell Tolkien thought this was oh so heroic, but does anyone else see the problem with this?

[aearwen]

Apr 30, 2009 20:41:51 GMT -6 randy said:

You can tell Tolkien thought this was oh so heroic, but does anyone else see the problem with this?

It's enough to make me want to give cudos to the Moriquendi, who knew better than to go to Valinor in the first place. Those Valar were seriously quirky folk!

[Rhapsody]

Apr 30, 2009 9:48:13 GMT -6 Kenaz said:

Holy crap, that is some seriously Biblical verbiage, Rhapsody! I had never heard that Finwe stayed before-- but then, my knowledge of HoME is both superficial and scatter-shot.

HOME is like that, but it always remains an interesting puzzle to me, everytime I open a book I see something I've always know a tad differently or another bunny latches on with big cute eyes.

I also find that whole passage deeply dissatisfying, but perhaps only because JRRT's personal morals and biases are so readily apparent. It feels less like a bit of the Middle-Earth legendarium, and more like a piece of fictionalized catechism. (which, I suppose, it rather was.)

Yeah, at the SWG there was a discussion about material regarding Míriel not making it to the published Silmarillion, but the way you put it: it does make sense to me why Christopher let it out and perhaps the whole LACE as well.

That said, I was glad to find a smidge of canonical support in favor of literal reembodying, as I always thought the idea of them being reborn into infancy and having to live a whole second life to be strange and unnecessarily complicated.

There are reasons that make sense to me as to the why he discarded the idea of people being reborn as a baby: a great injustice to the first parents and so on (makes sense to me as a mom). Arthrabed has been mentioned, Lace has a load on it if I remember it correctly and the essay about Glorfindel has also stuff about it. I am really trying to remember, without the books nearby.

I really like the idea that *none* of them are too eager to take back the throne. It kind of reminds me of this game we used to play at camp after meals where someone would lay their finger next to their nose, and then someone else would notice and do the same thing, and so on and so forth until the last person at the table realized they hadn't held their finger up, and they were "It" for doing dishes.

Hahaha, that would be an interesting meeting, that's for sure. Would they toss the crone around? Perhaps Dodge ball would settle it?

[Rhapsody]

Apr 29, 2009 15:57:04 GMT -6 crowdaughter said:

I remember reading that too, but since JRRT says one thing in one place and the opposite in another -- why should Finwe have to do that? Because he'd had the temerity to marry twice? And hadn't Miss "I'm so exhausted from bearing Feanor; leave me alone" had her mind wiped and been given a job as handmaiden to the Valar? Why should Indis have to be all alone until Ambar Metta?

Hm. Even with the part Rhapsody quoted, I would drive this question one step further, heretic that I am: if Finwe has now accepted to stay in Mandos forever, why should Indis not marry another time? And what of the wifes of the sons of Feanor? Or of Nerdanel, herself? Would Nerdanel be allowed to remarry, if she desired so? Feanaro is bound to stay in Mandos until Ambar Mettar, after all.

What I seem to recall is that re-embodied unmarried kids return to their parents (think Finrod), if your married you go back to your spouse. It's in Lace I think.... (it's more about sex ). That is what Mandos wanted to prevent with Finwe anyway because Finwe still felt drawn to Míriel and an injustice would be done to Indis.

However, as for the original question, if the many kings of the Noldor got rehoused in Aman, and if the same was true for Thingol and Oropher and Amdir, I would think that the most likely solution for them would probably be to go all and found some little courts of their own. I cannot easily see them step back into the second line, again. Jael wrote a believable scene, in Wayward Sons, with Oropher abdicating, but I have to say I thought Thranduil incredibly lucky that daddy did not want the kingship anymore; I would have expected Thranduil to chafe under his rule, otherwise, sooner or later. The same would be true for Thranduil, or any of the Noldor kings, if they came to Aman and were expected to fit in and follow the rule of those who stayed there, again. I could see some eye-rolling happening, there.

I am pondering... what if Thingol refused the call to return to Mandos? Where did Melian go? Did the elf once re-embodied search for her? Can anyone take away these critters before I have more plot panda's than I like?

[crowdaughter]

May 1, 2009 9:53:44 GMT -6 Rhapsody said:

I am pondering... what if Thingol refused the call to return to Mandos? Where did Melian go? Did the elf once re-embodied search for her? Can anyone take away these critters before I have more plot panda's than I like?

Didn't it say in Silm that she went back to Aman? If Thingol had refused to follow the Summoning, she might have stayed in Ennor, though. For a Maia, being unhoused is just the natural stage of things, and she would not have had that much trouble to spend eternity together with an unhoused fea, would she now?
Of course, that would mean that both would be pretty rebellious against the Valar...

[Rhapsody]

May 1, 2009 15:57:18 GMT -6 crowdaughter said:

May 1, 2009 9:53:44 GMT -6 Rhapsody said:

I am pondering... what if Thingol refused the call to return to Mandos? Where did Melian go? Did the elf once re-embodied search for her? Can anyone take away these critters before I have more plot panda's than I like?

Didn't it say in Silm that she went back to Aman? If Thingol had refused to follow the Summoning, she might have stayed in Ennor, though. For a Maia, being unhoused is just the natural stage of things, and she would not have had that much trouble to spend eternity together with an unhoused fea, would she now?
Of course, that would mean that both would be pretty rebellious against the Valar...

You're right, I happen to have a copy if the Silm here (page 281 of my paperback), gardens of Lorien. *duh* I have read a fic of Maeve recently where Melian's spirit lingered in ME. She wrote it so immensely well that that impression stuck with me. *facepalm*

[walks]

concerning oropher: while i cannot see him putting up with it. since he was a king in arda, the fact remains that his leige lord was elu thengol. and frankly, i do not see elu thengol putting up with much of oropher's crap. (apologies to oropher fans.)

[Scarlet]

Apr 27, 2009 15:13:31 GMT -6 Kenaz said:

Ok, so I'm taking a momentary reprieve from work because this thought just popped into my head, and this seemed like the appropriate forum to unload it.
Note that this is purely yapping for the sake of yapping; I'm just curious.

So. Valinor. 4th age and beyond. After some untold amount of time, all the Elves are, ostensibly, released from the Halls of Waiting (save for those "special cases" in the Feanorian line), re-embodied or born and raised all over again-- however that works-- then who gets to rule what?

Does the high kingship of the Noldor, for example, ultimately revert back to Finwe forever and ever? Does everyone who was ever a king get to start up their own little kingdom somewhere else?

Is it different with the Sindar and/or Silvan Elves? Does anyone imagine that Legolas is pining away, Morrissey-style, about being always a princeling and never a king? (yes, yes, HIGHLY UNLIKELY, I know, but you see my point)...

I guess in my mind, I'm envisioning some sort of Thranduil-Oropher cage match, but maybe that's just a personal perversion better left unexplored.

LOL, what a concept.
I must admit I had the same questions/thoughts many times before.

Never had any answers, aside from the fact that Valinor must be dynamically stretched each time such kingling/king was back, in order to accommodate all the population, and more then that, their ego-es.....

Talk about smaller tribes each with their king.....
Luckily, I read enough fics each with different view on these topics to cover all the options available.....