Kenaz
New Sneech
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
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Post by Kenaz on Apr 27, 2009 15:13:31 GMT -6
Ok, so I'm taking a momentary reprieve from work because this thought just popped into my head, and this seemed like the appropriate forum to unload it. Note that this is purely yapping for the sake of yapping; I'm just curious.
So. Valinor. 4th age and beyond. After some untold amount of time, all the Elves are, ostensibly, released from the Halls of Waiting (save for those "special cases" in the Feanorian line), re-embodied or born and raised all over again-- however that works-- then who gets to rule what?
Does the high kingship of the Noldor, for example, ultimately revert back to Finwe forever and ever? Does everyone who was ever a king get to start up their own little kingdom somewhere else?
Is it different with the Sindar and/or Silvan Elves? Does anyone imagine that Legolas is pining away, Morrissey-style, about being always a princeling and never a king? (yes, yes, HIGHLY UNLIKELY, I know, but you see my point)... I guess in my mind, I'm envisioning some sort of Thranduil-Oropher cage match, but maybe that's just a personal perversion better left unexplored.
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Post by aearwen on Apr 27, 2009 16:22:12 GMT -6
Isn't it lovely that Tolkien left us all that blank canvas in his masterpiece to try to figure out just how things would/should go in Aman after everybody is rehoused/reborn/returned? I honestly don't see sons turning on fathers for knock-down, drag-outs. I do, however, sense that those who remained behind until the very end would have a vastly different perspective on life, different set of priorities, etc.
FWIW, that's some of the stuff I'm exploring in one of my WIPs. But to do it justice means a massive, epic effort.
Just MHO, YMMV.
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Post by jael on Apr 27, 2009 16:39:04 GMT -6
Yeah -- that was my biggest question when I decided to re-house Oropher and bring him back. After doing three thousand years of the hardest time in Middle-earth, would Thranduil just calmly hand over the reins again and knuckle under to Dad?
I have him offering to do just that, but I don't think he would have lasted long happily in that situation. Aearwen's is the most plausible scenario I've seen for what would happen when and if Thranduil went to Aman.
I just cheat and have him staying on in the world of Men.
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Post by elfscribe on Apr 27, 2009 16:51:05 GMT -6
Ok, So. Valinor. 4th age and beyond. After some untold amount of time, all the Elves are, ostensibly, released from the Halls of Waiting (save for those "special cases" in the Feanorian line), re-embodied or born and raised all over again-- however that works-- then who gets to rule what? This is a very good question and all I can say is, damned if I know. Maybe they'll have a really high-stakes game of scissors-paper-stone. ;D
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Post by oshun on Apr 27, 2009 21:05:41 GMT -6
I think it is an open question that one can settle to their own taste. I had a big question in my mind as to whether Thranduil would ever leave M-e. Now I have a hard time even thinking about him, because Jael is so consistent and determined in following her own canon on that, that she tends to suck me into it.
In my own mind, I thought Finwe was tired of it all, even before he died (he certainly wasn't very proactive when Feanor and Fingolfin were at one another's throats). And that Fingolfin really didn't want to think about being King when he got back into place. I do not know what the lot of them would have thought of Finarfin. I sort of pictured them as bunch of guys not fighting over leadership but quite the opposite, although probably happy to hold the honoric of once-a-high-king and all having their own groupies. (You know me though, I do not tend to look at these questions in the light of epic storytelling traditions, but as a way to reflect upon more modern social questions and psychological motivations.)
Dawn F. and I both wanted to write stories about what happened to Feanor at the last great fight based upon the text of the Second Prophecy of Mandos that I liked best. She wrote hers sometime over a year ago or so and I was really looking forward to it and then heartily appalled when I read it (a terrific story actually--really about Nerdanel, with amazing characterization of both Feanor and Nerdanel). But her take on it was about 180 degrees off from what I am intending to write. And Dawn and I tend to have a lot of personal!canon in common. I have stolen specific incidents and general tone from her relating to Feanor's sons and their cousins and she has taken small plot points or characterization from mine several times as well. In this case, we could not have been farther apart. You wouldn't have known we even read the same text.
My theory on these questions is "knock yourself out"--internal consistency is all I really care about.
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Post by randy on Apr 27, 2009 21:16:39 GMT -6
What is the exact quote that indicates Feanor will never be released?
I recall raising an eyebrow at a fic in which Feanor was being reborn -- complete with his sons communicating with the fetus who would be their returned father.
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Post by oshun on Apr 27, 2009 21:19:42 GMT -6
What is the exact quote that indicates Feanor will never be released? I recall raising an eyebrow at a fic in which Feanor was being reborn -- complete with his sons communicating with the fetus who would be their returned father. I'll find it for you, Randy. Hey, I take those plots and suspend my disbelief. If the story is well-written and compelling I'll buy anything. If not, it can be all shiny and canon perfect and I still won't like it.
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Post by Moreth on Apr 28, 2009 1:29:12 GMT -6
Hey, I take those plots and suspend my disbelief. If the story is well-written and compelling I'll buy anything. If not, it can be all shiny and canon perfect and I still won't like it. I totally agree ;D And I find myself wondering if they might decide to jack in this archaic concept of kingship and establish a republic! *Chortles* I guess with good characterisation, I buy anything from 'No, no! Let me abdicate...' to a replay of the whole Fëanor/Fingolfin mess.
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Rhapsody
Pretty Good Sneech
Bard of Silver Dreams
Posts: 161
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Post by Rhapsody on Apr 28, 2009 5:32:10 GMT -6
Ok, so I'm taking a momentary reprieve from work because this thought just popped into my head, and this seemed like the appropriate forum to unload it. Note that this is purely yapping for the sake of yapping; I'm just curious. So. Valinor. 4th age and beyond. After some untold amount of time, all the Elves are, ostensibly, released from the Halls of Waiting (save for those "special cases" in the Feanorian line), re-embodied or born and raised all over again-- however that works-- then who gets to rule what? Does the high kingship of the Noldor, for example, ultimately revert back to Finwe forever and ever? Does everyone who was ever a king get to start up their own little kingdom somewhere else? I recall reading that Finwë never leaves the halls of waiting in favour of Míriel (its somewhere in the HOME books, might be Morgoth's ring or the Peoples of Middle-earth). Fëanor is confided to the halls until the last battle if I remember it correctly. So that settles that. I don't have the books nearby, but Oshun probably knows where to find those. I am not certain what canon says about Fingolfin and if he was ever re-embodied. I hardly researched that guy. I guess it all boils down in how much his elder brothers let Finarfin keep the rulership over the Noldor if they are re-embodied. Like Prince Charles? Makes you wonder who his Camilla would be The way rulership in our royal house was described by the respective Queens of the last century that it was considered as a huge responsibility and burden. So personally I can imagine that a crown prince(ss) might be glad that he or she does not have to shoulder that yet. However they live forever in this golden cage... I wonder how much rulership the Silvan elves would like or would want to accept though... Hmm great question to ponder about! Personally depending on what Feanorian in a certain scenario I am exploring, it feels to me that they already consider themselves lucky that they were allowed to leave Mandos, but all is game to me.
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Post by jael on Apr 28, 2009 10:39:17 GMT -6
I remember reading that too, but since JRRT says one thing in one place and the opposite in another -- why should Finwe have to do that? Because he'd had the temerity to marry twice? And hadn't Miss "I'm so exhausted from bearing Feanor; leave me alone" had her mind wiped and been given a job as handmaiden to the Valar? Why should Indis have to be all alone until Ambar Metta?
Another good question -- is Mandos like a prison, where you can't leave without the permission of the Valar? Or is is like a giant rest home, where the stay is voluntary until you've recovered from the trauma of bodily death?
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Rhapsody
Pretty Good Sneech
Bard of Silver Dreams
Posts: 161
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Post by Rhapsody on Apr 29, 2009 12:51:08 GMT -6
I remember reading that too, but since JRRT says one thing in one place and the opposite in another -- why should Finwe have to do that? Because he'd had the temerity to marry twice? And hadn't Miss "I'm so exhausted from bearing Feanor; leave me alone" had her mind wiped and been given a job as handmaiden to the Valar? Why should Indis have to be all alone until Ambar Metta? I can't recall it correctly, I think I saved it somewhere (I looked into this 2 years ago for my Nano-novel and my memory is sketchy as best these days). It was part of the deal Finwë struck with the Valar *rummages around* I typed it over, but I forgot to list from where... my memory says Morgoth's Ring, but that book is still packed. *ahem* Then Miriel and Finwe met again in Mandos, and lo! Miriel was glad of the meeting, and her sadness was lightened; and the will in which she had been set was released. And when she learned of Finwe all that had befallen since her departure (for she had given no heed to it, nor asked tidings, until then) she was greatly moved; and she said to Finwe in her thought: 'I erred in leaving thee and our son, or at the least in not soon returning after brief repose; for had I done so he might have grown wiser. But the children of Indis shall redress his errors and therefore I am glad that they should have being, and Indis hath my love. How should I bear grudge against one who received what I rejected and cherished what I abandoned. Would that I might set all the Tale of our people and of thee and thy children in a tapestry of many colours, as a memorial brighter than memory! For though I am cut off now from the world, and I accept that Doom as just, I would still watch and record all that befalls those dear to me, and their offspring also. [Added: I feel again the call of my body and its skills.]' And Finwe said to Vaire: 'Dost thou hear the prayer and desire of Miriel? Why will Mandos refuse this redress of her griefs, that her being may not be void and without avail? Behold! I instead will abide with Mandos for ever, and so make amends. For surely, if I remain unhoused, and forgo life in Arda, then his Doom will be inviolate.' 'So thou may deem,' answered Vaire; 'yet Mandos is stern, and he will not readily permit a vow to be revoked. Also he will consider not only Miriel and thee, but Indis and thy children, whom thou seemest to forget, pitying now Miriel only.' 'Thou art unjust to me in thy thought,' said Finwe. 'It is unlawful to have two wives, but one may love two women, each differently, and without diminishing one love by another. Love of Indis did not drive out love of Miriel; so now pity for Miriel doth not lessen my heart's care for Indis. But Indis parted from me without death. I had not seen her for many years, and when the Marrer smote me I was alone. She hath dear children to comfort her, and her love, I deem, is now most for Ingoldo.(16) His father she may miss; but not the father of Feanaro! But above all her heart now yearns for the halls of Ingwe and the peace of the Vanyar, far from the strife of the Noldor. Little comfort should I bring her, if I returned; and the lordship of the Noldor hath passed to my sons.'(17) But when Mandos was approached he said to Finwe: 'It is well that thou desirest not to return, for this I should have forbidden, until the present griefs are long passed. But it is better still that thou hast made this offer, to deprive thyself, of thy free will, and out of pity for another. This is a counsel of healing, out of which good may grow.' Therefore when Nienna came to him and renewed her prayer for Miriel, he consented, accepting the abnegation of Finwe as her ransom. Then the fea of Miriel was released and came before Manwe and received his blessing; and she went then to Lorien and re-entered her body, and awoke again, as one that cometh out of a deep sleep; and she arose and her body was refreshed. But after she had stood in the twilight of Lorien a long while in thought, remembering her former life, and all the tidings that she had learned, her heart was still sad, and she had no desire to return to her own people. Therefore she went to the doors of the House of Vaire and prayed to be admitted; and this prayer was granted, although in that House none of the Living dwelt nor have others ever entered it in the body.(18) But Miriel was accepted by Vaire and became her chief handmaid; and all tidings of the Noldor down the years from their beginning were brought to her, and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwe is at times permitted to look upon. And still she is at work, though her name has been changed. For now she is named Firiel,* which to the Eldar signifies 'She that died',(19) and also 'She that sighed'. As fair as the webs of Firiel is praise that is given seldom even to works of the Eldar. See above, it looks like Mandos has the powers to forbid someone to leave and to confine them there as long as he likes.
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Post by randy on Apr 29, 2009 13:01:04 GMT -6
Thank you, Rhapsody -- my only comment on this is that Miriel needs to learn to make up her elfing mind.
And Tolkien sure had a thing against second marriages, didn't he!
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