Ancestors of the Rohirrim

[samtyr]

I'm working on a story dealing the ancestors of the Rohirrim starting in the late First Age/early Second Age -- even though Rohan itself isn't founded until late in the Third Age. As nearly as I can make it out, it breaks down like this (approximate):

Northmen --> Lohtûr --> Éothéod --> Rohirrim (Rohan)

Is this fairly accurate or have I overlooked something obvious and/or important?

Any/all suggestions, ideas and other references much appreciated.

[erulisse]

Because they were a nomadic peoples, there really wasn't a lot of history before they were finally settled in the age of Eorl. I suspect you can do a lot of suppositions and not be too inaccurate on their history prior to Meduseld and their Gondorian alliance.

- Erulisse (that's one L)

[surgicalsteel]

I'm a little curious where 'Lohtûr' came from. I'm not an expert on the Rohirrim and their ancestors by any stretch of the imagination, but I didn't remember seeing that anywhere in the actual texts. I just did a very quick search in digital editions of 'UT' and 'PoMe' (they seemed the most likely to have material on the ancestors of the Rohirrim) and Word returns no matches for that particular name. Ditto for the 'Letters' (which I searched because they're full of odd little factoids here and there).

Google turns up a few links to Wikipedia (which I don't find 100% reliable) and to Conservapedia (which is also not 100% reliable) which suggest that 'Lohtûr' is the actual Rohirric word for the Rohirrim - but there's no citation to any of the actual source texts provided. So I'm just curious!

[samtyr]

I was under the impression that Lohtûr was an earlier translation of sorts for Éothéod but I can't be sure and due to switching computers, I don't remember where I found it. I used to have all sorts of notes and things but they disappeared long ago. (During a move, probably and not just changing computers.).

[surgicalsteel]

Apr 12, 2010 10:41:18 GMT -6 samtyr said:

I was under the impression that Lohtûr was an earlier translation of sorts for Éothéod but I can't be sure and due to switching computers, I don't remember where I found it. I used to have all sorts of notes and things but they disappeared long ago. (During a move, probably and not just changing computers.).

Took me some digging between Googling and then digging through PoMe again - it's in Section II of PoMe 'The Appendix on Languages,' and in what looks like a footnote to a footnote to me - that basically 'Lohtûr' and 'Éothéod' are two different words for the same group of people at the same time. The actual original Rohirric is supposed to be the former - the latter is the Rohirric name translated into Old English (it's in the same material that mentions that Frodo's name was actually Maura Labingi and 'Frodo Baggins' is a translation - in that section of PoMe). It goes into the fact that the 'Éo-' root in Old English which means 'horse' is a translation of Rohirric 'loho-, lô-' and the Rohirric name for Rohan would've been 'Lôgrad.'

So anyway - two different words for the same group of people at the same time, but it took me some digging to find that.

And I agree with one-L-Erulisse that since they seem to have been nomads, there likely wasn't much written history, so you've got all sorts of wiggle room in which to imagine their culture.

[russandol]

The "Cirion and Eorl" piece in Unfinished Tales has a little bit on the origin of the Rohirrim. A note at the end of the chapter says that the Northmen were "most nearly akin to the third and greatest of the peoples of the Elf-friends, ruled by the House of Hador."

So you could also look at any info about the House of Hador and extrapolate from the little there is. The Children of Túrin will tell you about Húrin and also the people of Brethil. The "Coming of Túor to Gondolin" has a little about his childhood before he is enslaved.

Saying that, I would not choose to go that way. Given the thousands of years between the First Age when Túrin and Túor were around and the 20th century of the Third (allegedly the first record of the Éothéod by Gondor), there may be loads of changes between the cultures of the ancestors and the "final" Rohirrim. A little like trying to find any resemblance between the Mesopotamians and the Iraqis in the times of the Ottoman Empire. Civilisations rise and fall type of argument.

So, from a different viewpoint I agree with other replies - you can basically create any culture that you wish.

[samtyr]

Ok, thank you everyone for all your time and discussion about the famous horse culture of Middle Earth. I really appreciate it.

[Morthoron]

Apr 10, 2010 9:10:23 GMT -6 samtyr said:

I'm working on a story dealing the ancestors of the Rohirrim starting in the late First Age/early Second Age -- even though Rohan itself isn't founded until late in the Third Age.

You might try a Gothic language dictionary, as the Northmen spoke a Gothic variant (see names such as Viduvagia and Vinitharya as examples) prior to settling into the more accessible Anglo-Saxon variation of the Rohirrim.

For instance, Marhwini contains the Gothic masculine stem marhs (horse).