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Post by oshun on Aug 1, 2010 11:35:32 GMT -6
I never seem to be able to get sundering of the Elves straight. I would think that as an offshoot of the Teleri that the Nandor would be considered part of the Eldar since they are descended from those who accepted the original summons of Oromë to move West across the mountains.
I just ran across a reference in a story stating that part of the Nandor were Avari and it bugged me to want to try to figure out if that could be true or not. No, I am not a nit-picking canatic, but the story did not seem to want to be considered as a canon departure on this point either. (I was never good at following Mendelian genetics in school either. Was when I first began to develop a block on the natural sciences! Poor confused me!)
It's not a big deal, but if I were writing the story, I would want to know the answer to the question. On the other hand, at least one plot point in the story seemed to hinge on the acceptance of the author's referring to part of the Nandor as Avari. Mainly curious for myself, because I am writing about all kinds of crazy Elven peoples coming together at the Mereth Aderthad and later in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, so at some point I will either have to get it right myself or write around it in such a way that I don't describe any grouping wrongly.
Jael? Randy? Anyone?
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Post by erulisse on Aug 1, 2010 17:53:50 GMT -6
I'm no-where near my references, in fact several states away. But I do seem to recall that of the Nandor, one segment stayed by the ocean, but a second segment returned to the forests of Doriath and lived under Elu Thingol. Then again, my tired and addled, vacation-ridden brain may have confused the sub-groups totally and this may not be the answer that you were looking for.
- Erulisse (one L)
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Post by oshun on Aug 1, 2010 18:04:03 GMT -6
Thanks, Erulisse. Those who became the Teleri did split off at least a couple of times and move about and reunite with other splinter groups. I guess I thought the categorization of Eldar applied those who set off on the great trek and not where they ended up. And the Avari were those who initially refused the summons and stayed put temporarily at least and then went about whatever migrations they had in their own way at their own pace.
It's kind of a stupid question on my part. I wasn't looking for someone to do my research, but had the feeling there might be people who had worked on this and had strong opinions I would like to hear.
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Post by randy on Aug 1, 2010 22:20:14 GMT -6
The Green-elves (Nandor) are the descendants of those elves who originally turned away from the Great Journey on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. Some of them stayed there to become the Silvan elves of Eryn Galen and Lorien. In time, some of these Green-elves migrated into Beleriand.
To confuse things even further, some of the Avari seem to have migrated westward as well, getting as far as Beleriand too. One would think they'd naturally tend to associate mostly with the Green-elves.
Not really. Some of the Silvans may have been Avari, but that's different.
So, to answer your question, the Nandor can be considered Eldar.
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Post by oshun on Aug 3, 2010 13:44:57 GMT -6
The Green-elves (Nandor) are the descendants of those elves who originally turned away from the Great Journey on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. Some of them stayed there to become the Silvan elves of Eryn Galen and Lorien. In time, some of these Green-elves migrated into Beleriand. To confuse things even further, some of the Avari seem to have migrated westward as well, getting as far as Beleriand too. One would think they'd naturally tend to associate mostly with the Green-elves. Not really. Some of the Silvans may have been Avari, but that's different. So, to answer your question, the Nandor can be considered Eldar. Thanks, Randy! That is extremely helpful. |
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virodeil
New Sneech 
Rey the Indonesian Gecko
Posts: 29
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Post by virodeil on May 2, 2011 23:12:43 GMT -6
The Green-elves (Nandor) are the descendants of those elves who originally turned away from the Great Journey on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. Some of them stayed there to become the Silvan elves of Eryn Galen and Lorien. In time, some of these Green-elves migrated into Beleriand. To confuse things even further, some of the Avari seem to have migrated westward as well, getting as far as Beleriand too. One would think they'd naturally tend to associate mostly with the Green-elves. Not really. Some of the Silvans may have been Avari, but that's different. So, to answer your question, the Nandor can be considered Eldar. Uhh... are "Green Elves" are only for the Nandor, not the Avari too? Because I seemed to get it differently from reading Silm. (Or perhaps I just didn't look into it more carefully, or just didn't understand.) From what I know, those Green Elves then call themselves the Lindar -- the Singers... So shouldn't they consist both the Nandor and Avari, not only the Nandor? But I agree with you all about the Nandor being part of Eldar. - Rey PS: Some of the Nandor settled by Anduin during the Great Journey, if I'm not mistaken. And as far as I know, Anduin is in the western part of the Misty Mountains... |
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Post by oshun on May 3, 2011 4:05:06 GMT -6
The Green-elves (Nandor) are the descendants of those elves who originally turned away from the Great Journey on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. Some of them stayed there to become the Silvan elves of Eryn Galen and Lorien. In time, some of these Green-elves migrated into Beleriand. To confuse things even further, some of the Avari seem to have migrated westward as well, getting as far as Beleriand too. One would think they'd naturally tend to associate mostly with the Green-elves. Not really. Some of the Silvans may have been Avari, but that's different. So, to answer your question, the Nandor can be considered Eldar. Uhh... are "Green Elves" are only for the Nandor, not the Avari too? Because I seemed to get it differently from reading Silm. (Or perhaps I just didn't look into it more carefully, or just didn't understand.) From what I know, those Green Elves then call themselves the Lindar -- the Singers... So shouldn't they consist both the Nandor and Avari, not only the Nandor? But I agree with you all about the Nandor being part of Eldar. - Rey PS: Some of the Nandor settled by Anduin during the Great Journey, if I'm not mistaken. And as far as I know, Anduin is in the western part of the Misty Mountains... The reason I originally asked about Green elves and Nandor, is I find the texts about them terribly confusing. There are writers in the fandom, like Jael here, and various fans of Doriath on the SWG who have tried to sort out those distinctions and defintions. I like the descriptions, fairly clear, of the divisions of the Elven peoples who went to Aman (Noldor, Vanyar and Teleri), with all of their consistent stereotypes, etc. Then I can, as a fanfic writer, pick and chose how to interpret that history. I probably did not become as engaged with the whole wood elf thing because the canon surrounding them and their numerous split offs was too hard for me to sort out. Also, they seemed to embody certain backward aspects of Tolkien's ideology--return to nature, evils of technical progress, etc. Other people interpret that differently: respect for the environment, natural beauty, etc. |
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Post by randy on May 3, 2011 10:57:01 GMT -6
Pssst . . . eastern. The River Anduin and its wide plain are east of the Misty Mountains. Supposedly, on the Great Journey, a group led by Lenwe/Denweg turned aside, dismayed by the height of the mountain range, and settled in the forests on either side of the river. Later, roughly First Age, Nandor led by Denethor, Denweg's son, made their way west as far as Beleriand.
Resident Silvan fancier here. LOL
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Post by eldarinprincess on May 10, 2011 22:15:02 GMT -6
I was under the impression that the Nandor came from the Avari (or other way around).
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