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Post by aearwen on Jun 1, 2011 13:41:32 GMT -6
I have a question:
If an Elf child dies and goes to Mandos, when s/he is re-housed, do they emerge from Mandos as children once more - or as adults? This has bearing on a one-shot I'm writing that fits into my IDD!verse, and deals with Glorfindel's children who died when Gondolin fell. The story is written, I just need to make sure I don't violate canon with it.
Thanks!!
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Post by elleth on Jun 1, 2011 15:07:19 GMT -6
There isn't any canon treatment on dead elven children that I could find... but in theory, as Mandos is a place of restoration and healing from trauma and 'sin'/marring that occured to the deceased elves in life (Glorfindel especially - he is mentioned returning to the 'primitive innocence' of the Amanyar who didn't join the rebellion), and the body of a rehoused elf is physiologically identical with the one they lost, I can't really see why they would return as adults. The texts always made me think of the halls as a fairly static environment in terms of physical growth, and returning as an adult is a fairly fundamental change from their state when they enter Mandos, so my vote is no, they return as children.
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Post by crowdaughter on Jun 1, 2011 15:13:14 GMT -6
I have a question: If an Elf child dies and goes to Mandos, when s/he is re-housed, do they emerge from Mandos as children once more - or as adults? As far as I recall, and as nearly everything with Tolkien, it depends on the stage you pick in the creation of the mythology of the master. The early ideas he had apparently were that Elves would be literally reborn, probably by their own parents. So it is written in The Laws and Customs of the Eldar: "A houseless fea that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the incarnate world through child-birth. Only thus could it return*..." (Morgoth's Ring, p221). The asterisk note to this sentence says that Miriel, who was rehoused in her own body, is a special case. However, as far as I recall Tolkien decided later that rehoused Eldar would indeed get their bodies back as they were when those bodies were destroyed, even their full-grown adult bodies: "The Converse of Manwe and Eru" and later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation in Morgoth's Ring p 362: "Eru answered: 'let the houseless be re-housed!' Manwe asked: 'How shall this be done?' Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fea be re-born as a child.'" (snipping) "Eru said: 'I give you authority. The skill ye have already, if ye will take heed. Look and ye will find that each spirit of My Children retaineth in itself the full imprint and memory of its former house; and in its nakedness is open to you, so that ye may clearly perceive all that is in it. After this imprint ye may make for it again such a house in all particulars as it had ere evil befell it. Thus ye may send it back to the lands of the living..'" So, I think, the former imprint would refer to the state of the body as it was when it died. That would mean, the child would be rehoused as a child, probably. |
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Post by erulisse on Jun 1, 2011 18:16:37 GMT -6
Although I agree with Crowdaughter, the secondary part of the question is when are they released in their new bodies and how much have they grown before they meet those who knew them as children again?
I can very easily envision children slain, perhaps in Gondolin or in Ost-in-Edhil, being rehoused, but then being fostered out to relatives or families because the children were truly innocent and should not have been kept overlong in Mandos' Halls. Therefore, when their parent(s) arrived in Valinor - via death or transport - their children might easily be grown and might possibly have children of their own.
Just a thought....
- Erulisse (one L)
I've also played around with this thought a bit...I think it's a pretty open field for exploration
Really nice and fast research, BTW, Crowdaughter. I wish my brain and books worked that quickly :-) ;D
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Post by aearwen on Jun 1, 2011 22:58:29 GMT -6
Cool, guys. Thanks!
And thanks for the more in-depth research for me, crowdaughter. It's much appreciated.
I'll post my story, then, and see what you guys think of it...
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Post by crowdaughter on Jun 2, 2011 5:28:47 GMT -6
You are welcome!  Therefore, when their parent(s) arrived in Valinor - via death or transport - their children might easily be grown and might possibly have children of their own. Good point. And have completely different experiences, too, which would reduce the first sundering from their original parents to something less grieveous than the loss would still be for those.  Interesting constellation... Thank you! Having to have discussed the Laws and Customs in detail and at nauseam with some self-declared canon-nazis at some point apparently is good for something...  |
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rhyselle
New Sneech 
The distance is great from the firm belief to the realization from concrete experience.
Posts: 48
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Post by rhyselle on Jun 3, 2011 7:19:58 GMT -6
This helped me too, as I have a couple of unfinished stories that I am thinking about re-working to actually get them done, involving slain elf children and their eventual reunion with their families.
While I have enjoyed reading Fiondil's "Elf Interrupted" tale (found on SoA), and I can suspend disbelief to not have it throw me out of the story, I have not really been comfortable with his assertion that the fea of a slain child would "grow up" in Mandos and then be put into a full grown body when the time came to return to the world.
It always made much more sense to me for a child's spirit to be placed in a child's body, so they could experience everything that they would have missed--both in physical and mental/emotional development. I hate to think of what kind of a shock it would be for a 5 year old child to suddenly wake up and she has all of the periodic hormonal throes that a young adult woman goes through!
Now, thinking on this topic, I have this mental image of a child-care center in Mandos, with frazzled Maiar praying that Lord Namo will get the kids re-housed quickly! LOL!
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Post by oshun on Jun 3, 2011 10:17:07 GMT -6
OMG! I have no idea and thinking about it gives me a headache. I have read all the texts and Tolkien's musings on re-writing them also. The only thing I like about the entire concept of the Halls of Mandos and re-housing is I get to give my favorite characters a longer life and/or second shot at fixing whatever I don't like about the canon ending to their story. (I swore at one time that I would never take that route to deal with my unhappiness with endings, but starting with fic swap prompts breaking my resistance, I have written a number of them at this point.)
Tolkien changed his mind so many times about how to handle the questions that I figure that is certainly an area where you can invent whatever you want and not get a tiny bleat of protest from the most hardened canonista. The proof of whether it works or not is in the individual story.
It is unbelievably chilling to think of losing a child and getting them back as an adult. But, hey, lots of creepy things happen in real life and this is fantasy. You can make it as fairy tale happy or creepy scary as you want.
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Post by randy on Jun 3, 2011 12:29:51 GMT -6
You know, after reading the L&C and coming away with the idea that dead elves were reincarnated and reborn as infants, I kind of thought that was unfair to the second set of parents, who would get a 're-tread' and do all the loving work of raising a child only to have him or her come into the memories of a previous life and then go off to seek their previous family.
The Athrabeth reassured me on that count, but it meant that bereaved family back in Middle-earth was SOL if they wanted to stay put.
I personally have always seen Mandos as less of a purgatory than a rest cure for whatever trauma one experienced in the first life, meaning one could stay as long as one wished or leave when ready. Obviously, if you were someone who hung onto all your old grudges you wouldn't be ready to leave. Time could also move strangely -- faster or slower.
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Post by erulisse on Jun 3, 2011 13:46:28 GMT -6
I agree with you in many respects, Randy. I also look at Mandos as a place for recovery and rest, a place where you can recouperate before re-entering the more stressful life of personal interactions in Lorien and then in whatever place you would choose to live.
As an adopted child myself, I don't see issues about being raised or re-raised by people other than blood kin, and those adoptive families, in many cases, can be more treasured than the blood kin.
- Erulisse (one L)
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