Stupid Sindarin question #2: Family relationships

[aearwen]

Another one of those things that one trips over constantly is the real dearth of words to express family relationships. The biggies are represented:

Adar - father
Ada - Dad/dy
Naneth - mother
Nana - Mom/my
ion - son
iell/sell - daughter
muindor - blood brother
gwador - adopted brother/sworn brother

But there are several relationships that are important to fanfic that have no apparent entries - and I have noted several polite and gentle nudges away from accepted Fanon/Neo-Sindarin.

Therefore:

If daerada/r and daernana/eth are not to be used for grandparents, what would you suggest?

And does Quenya give us any indication as to how to formulate:

niece
nephew
grandson
granddaughter
uncle
aunt

I find that gwanur to express a general "I'm related to you somehow" to be less than helpful.

I suggest these words, too, be added to our wordlist, when/if it ever comes into being.

[Darth Fingon]

Jun 16, 2009 20:38:48 GMT -6 aearwen said:

muindor - blood brother
gwador - adopted brother/sworn brother

To be exact, muindor means 'dear brother' (muin + tor) and gwador means 'together brother' (gwa + tor). 'Brother' is simply 'tôr', if said brother isn't dear.

If daerada/r and daernana/eth are not to be used for grandparents, what would you suggest?

It just so happens that I wrote an article about this very thing for the SWG June newsletter...

[aearwen]

Jun 16, 2009 22:55:25 GMT -6 Darth Fingon said:

It just so happens that I wrote an article about this very thing for the SWG June newsletter...

Very good article, Darth; thanks for the link! But the question remains: what you would suggest for Grandfather, Grandpa, Grandmother and Grandma in late 3rd Age Sindarin?

Another word for 'father', G eithog/eithweg, also mean 'ancestor' in a more generic sense. Similarly, G mavwen/mafwyn/mavuin means both 'mother' and 'ancestress'. G mam means both 'grandmother' and 'mother'. But G dâd is listed as meaning only 'grandfather'. The Q words for 'grandfather' and 'grandmother', haruand haruni, likewise do not have any other meaning.

So what I'm hearing here is that we have two options. (1) move eithweg and/or mavwen into "modern" Sindarin; or (2) Sindarinize haru and haruni? Which would be easier and/or easier to remember?

On to the other relationships you mention in the article:

G sion is listed as 'grandson' with no distinction as to whether this is a daughter's son or a son's son, but because of its similarity to both súyon and the G word for 'daughter' suil, it's possible that the title of sion is restricted to a daughter's son only. Its female equivalent, 'granddaughter', is G siel. Also related is the prefix G si- or sin-, meaning 'granddaughter of'. 'Grandson of' is G ho- or hon-.

Would one have to do much mutation to move sion and siel into "modern Sindarin? Those do seem to be the best candidates for this set...

In addition to meaning 'grandson', Q súyon is also listed as 'nephew', with a similar restriction: it means only the son of one's sister. Another word for 'nephew' is Q fion, which also means 'son'. Similar-sounding G fwion also only means 'sister's son', and G fwîr means only 'sister's daughter'. Both of these are related to the feminine patronymic prefix G fwi-. No words are listed to indicate what a brother's son might be called, but something similar to fwion and fwîr could be improvised using the male patronymic prefix G go- or gon-.

Would it be reasonable, then, to assume that "modern" Sindarin might simply use words such as 'sister's son/daughter' and/or 'son's son/daughter' - and if so, how would such a thing be expressed?

Related to the words G hethos and hethir ('brother' and 'sister' respectively), we have words for male and female first cousins: G hethren and hethres. Also related to these words is G hethrin, which means (in relation to brothers and sisters) 'having both parents the same' or (in relation to cousins) 'having two grandparents the same'. We also have G goredhweg, 'male cousin', and goredhwin, 'female cousin'. On the Qenya side there are ettani, ettaresse, resse ('female cousin') and ettanu, ettarendo, ettaréro, rendo, réro ('male cousin'). Also the first non-gender-specific word of the lot: Q etta, 'cousin'.

The words for 'second cousin' are G gedren (male) and G gedres (female), related to the word G ged, meaning 'kinsman' (and also 'friend'). G ress means both 'female cousin' and 'female relative'; its male counterpart is G ren(d). Similarly, the words Q resse ('female cousin'), rendo, and réro ('male cousin') listed above can also mean 'kinswoman' or 'kinsman' in a more generic sense. A final word for 'blood kinsman' is G nosied.

So...

How would one go about moving all those lovely Gnomish words into "modern" Sindarin?

As I said, more grist for that wordlist you spoke of constructing back when...

[jael]

I'm resurrecting this thread, because I need the word for 'grandfather' as used by a Nandorin elf at the very end of the Second Age. Nandorin, as of the sort of Green-elf whose people never crossed the Misties. It's more of a fond nickname -- the Sindarin equivalent of Pee-paw.

This thread didn't give us a conclusive Sindarin word for grandfather, and the link no longer goes to Darth's article. I used a variant of Daer-ada once, and I'd like to change that too.