Edain/Men?

[randy]

I'm not sure if the following question should go in 'Canon' or here, but what the hell --

Is the following assertion correct? That 'edain' refers to only a few groups of Men?

And, *****, I too am really anoyed at the use of "human" in Tolkien fandom. And as irritated at the use of Edain as a synonym. Edian is used only of the descendants form the three houses of Men that fought with the Elves against Morgoth. In the thirs age that would be the Dunedain and, if I remeber correctly, the Eorlingas. I am not sure of the Men of Dale, but I don't think the breelenders would be considered Edain. Eastlendings and Dunlendings would certainly not be.

Ignore the poor spelling. The person is ESL and spells poorly, but she seems to know canon very well.

[randy]

*bump* This seemed to disappear after the cleanup.

[Darth Fingon]

Jun 8, 2009 10:17:10 GMT -6 randy said:

I'm not sure if the following question should go in 'Canon' or here, but what the hell --

Is the following assertion correct? That 'edain' refers to only a few groups of Men?

Yes. Originally the word S adan (pl edain) and Q atan (pl atani) referred only to Men from three houses: Bëor, Haleth, and Hador. However, not all edain are dúnedain. Dúnedain refers only to Númenóreans and their descendants (that's what the word means: West Men).

So whether or not Men of Bree and Dale are classified as edain is up to your own interpretation of their ancestry. It's possible that, by the Third Age, edain could refer to any 'civilised' Man of Middle-earth (that is, anyone but the Easterlings, Hill Men, and so on), since separation of the original three Houses had long since disappeared.

That's as far as I understand, anyhow.

[Gandalfs apprentice]

Somewhere Tolkien says that the descendants of the true "Edain" into the Third Age were represented only by the Numenoreans. I guess they all either died or went to Elenna.

What exactly is intended by the distinction between "Edain" and regular, ordinary Men, is something I don't like to think too much about. Especially given Tolkien's blatant racism.

Gee, I wonder if there were any black Elves?

[randy]

So whether or not Men of Bree and Dale are classified as edain is up to your own interpretation of their ancestry

That's a damn good question. Does Tolkien have anything at all to say about the ancestry of the folks on the eastern side of Mirkwood? Bard the Bowman seems 'noble' enough to have qualified as one of the Edain.

Somewhere Tolkien says that the descendants of the true "Edain" into the Third Age were represented only by the Numenoreans. I guess they all either died or went to Elenna.

Great. Just great. So that brings up the next question -- is there any Sindarin word for plain regular old mutt Men, not of the exalted?

[nierielraina]

Jun 8, 2009 21:33:48 GMT -6 Gandalfs apprentice said:

Gee, I wonder if there were any black Elves?

Lamiel, in This Present Darkness, writes the Avari elves as black, with dreads too, I think. They are wild and fierce as well. Brilliant, IMO. But then that whole story is dark and brilliant.

[aearwen]

Jun 10, 2009 11:10:31 GMT -6 randy said:

So that brings up the next question -- is there any Sindarin word for plain regular old mutt Men, not of the exalted?

Fireb means "mortal"... I would think that the Elves, when not dealing with Dúnedain, would be thinking more in terms of mortality than bloodlines...

IMO, YMMV...

[Gandalfs apprentice]

Ooh, cool, Elves with dreads. Actually, I always thought that culturally they came off like yoga practitioners.

Aearwen: you are in California? In what general area, pray tell?

[aearwen]

Jun 10, 2009 16:07:21 GMT -6 Gandalfs apprentice said:

Aearwen: you are in California? In what general area, pray tell?

Central Coast - almost exactly half-way between San Francisco and Los Angeles. If you know where Pismo Beach is, I'm quite close to that.