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Post by Moreth on Jul 16, 2009 7:45:47 GMT -6
Why they can't be men and women I'll never know... but if the writer really, really wants to use Sindarin to talk about people, I'd rather check it's correct.
Plurals for the above in 'Elvish'? Help! I dunno. My grasp on Sindarin is about as good as my grasp on Egyptian hieroglyphics - poor!
elleth (sing. fem.) - ellith or ellyth for the plural? ellon (sing. masc.) - ellyn for the plural?
Any advice appreciated!
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Post by Darth Fingon on Jul 16, 2009 8:45:02 GMT -6
elleth (sing. fem.) - ellith or ellyth for the plural? ellon (sing. masc.) - ellyn for the plural? It's: (s) elleth (pl) ellith (s) ellon (pl) ellyn Though, like you, I wonder why the shit they can't be men and women. An overabundance of elleth/ellith/ellon/ellyn is usually enough to make me back-button straight out of any story I'm reading. Incorrect plurals (elleths, ellons) are always enough. PS) Possibly worse than the 'elleths' mistake is these words showing up in reference to Quenya-speaking Noldor in YT Aman. That scenario is bad enough to keep me reading for the hilarity value alone.
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Post by erullisse on Jul 16, 2009 9:05:46 GMT -6
**YEAH ** More tasty tidbits to dutifully add to my Sindarin cheat sheet (and Moreth . . . I honest think the Egyptian hieroglyphics ARE easier) See? If the elves lived down south they wouldn't have had this problem - they'd just call everybody "YA'LL" ;D
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Post by jael on Jul 16, 2009 12:55:35 GMT -6
Because ignorant hordes of self-appointed canon experts at Fanfiction Net and a few other archives will review you, telling you that you cannot refer to an adult Elf male as a man.
An elf will think of himself as a man. If you need to differentiate through the eyes of an outsider, use Elf-man or Elf-woman, as Tolkien did.
What would the appropriate Quenya term for male and female elves be?
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Post by Moreth on Jul 17, 2009 5:01:50 GMT -6
It's: (s) elleth (pl) ellith (s) ellon (pl) ellyn Thanks, Darth - I knew I could rely on you! Hell, yeah... Because ignorant hordes of self-appointed canon experts at Fanfiction Net and a few other archives will review you, telling you that you cannot refer to an adult Elf male as a man. LOL! Now that does strike me as one of the odder bits of fanon *Scratches head* because Elda is not gender-specific and nér / nís is not race-specific. Quendu (m) and quendi (f)? But I personally much prefer your first idea! Or possibly erullisse's 'Ya'll...'
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Post by jael on Jul 17, 2009 11:06:41 GMT -6
Oh, it gets better. I was introduced to the fandom via a MST that sporked an author every time she referred to young Legolas as a boy or a child. Oh no -- the proper term must be elfling!
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Post by ithilwen on Jul 17, 2009 21:14:06 GMT -6
Elfling? Does Tolkien even use that word? We do know he uses the word 'Elf-child' though, in the Narn i Hin Hurin, and what's good enough for Tolkien is good enough for me!
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Post by angelica on Jul 19, 2009 11:44:02 GMT -6
I am generally put off by the stories that use elleth/ellon as a way to build Elvish atmospheres and tend to stop reading. Yes, why not man/woman/child?
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Post by jael on Jul 19, 2009 13:08:42 GMT -6
I'm told he never did. As a result, I went through my own early writings and removed all the instances of 'elfling' except where it was used by non-elves or in an extremely facetious manner -- an exasperated Oropher accusing Thranduil and Galion of behaving no better than elflings in . . . Elflings. LOL
It's a POV issue, really. Elf-child or elf-man/woman are good from the perspective of non-elves. But I never thought of my son as a Caucasian-child or myself as a Wisconsinite. Inside your own mind, you don't see yourself as 'the other'.
After hanging with Darth for so long it now seems a little noobish to me. But you do have writers trying sincerely to be 'canonical' who have been told they must use those terms to be correct.
Elves in Valinor are a different kettle of fish from those in Middle-earth. The only non-elves in Valinor would be the the Valar, and perhaps they might use a different term when speaking or thinking of an elf man or woman. I just wonder what that might be.
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Post by aearwen on Jul 19, 2009 13:48:40 GMT -6
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate to this discussion.
I use elleth, ellith, ellon, ellyn in my fics, most especially in my cross-cultural fics. These are words in Elvish by which the Elves name themselves. Why should I be reluctant to use perfectly good, recognized Sindarin terms in the way Tolkien intended them to be used?
Frankly, I find "man" or "woman" refering to Elves to be somewhat dissonant; especially in cross-cultural settings. "Man" and "woman" more normally refer to Mortals. I cannot imagine being a Mortal, seeing an Elf for the first time (and knowing that being to be an Elf), and thinking "what a handsome/timeless/beautiful man/woman." Mortals would see the "other-ness" of Elves, so would they not reflect that in their speech? Would they not at the very least use "he-Elf" or "she-Elf"? I'm certain Dwarves are not refered to as "men" or "women" without some other recognition of the fact that Dwarves are not Edain - why should Elves be any different?
I'm not personally anal about it either way, however; my preference is displayed normally only through my writing. When I read, I accept whatever the author wants to give me.
I think, if anything, I object more to folks being nasty or dismissive of a fic in reviews for the otherwise proper use of any of those words (either in English or Sindarin) just because it trips up a personal preference toggle. In many ways, that would feel on the receiving end much the same as a comment I recently got on the first chapter of Elladaniel that said nothing of the story, the characters, or actions - only "elves don't use saddles."
Excuse me?
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Post by jael on Jul 19, 2009 15:07:26 GMT -6
Let me guess -- you got that review at FFN? At least two of my early stories contain a long and excessively pedantic author's note about Glorfindel's saddle and bridle to forestall such things. At this point, I'd just laugh it off. My feelings about ellon/elf/man date from the time I practically stood on my head to avoid using the terms man and woman for adult elves. It's our job as writers to use the best terms for the story, and it's often a fine art. I think of two lines in particular that I put into Thranduil's mouth: "I will die, but I will die a happy man." (As in, adult male, with all that manhood implies.) The other was: "Die on your feet like a man, rather than on your knees weeping like a slave." That last one got me an earnest review telling me that Thranduil could not be a 'man', but I think you can see that anything other would have robbed both those lines of their power. Cross-cultural, where individuals of the various races need to be described, is another thing entirely.
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Post by aearwen on Jul 19, 2009 19:13:57 GMT -6
Let me guess -- you got that review at FFN? Nope. HASA. My reviews at FFN have all been positive. I got pissed and deleted the comment. It was a stupid remark that had nothing to do with the story - no reason to keep it or allow anybody else to see it. I agree changing the wording would have lessened the impact of the quotes. However, like I said, I'm not so attached to my own preferences while writing that I refuse to read the works of others who see differently. I'm glad we agree on that point. I know I'm in the minority otherwise...
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