tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Sept 19, 2010 20:48:33 GMT -6
I know this is an old thread, but I have the same question as Ignoblebard - except different names.
Is it Ella-dan: or EE-lad-an; or EE-lah-dan?
Halb-a-yard; Hal-bar-add; or Hal-Ball-ard?
Or something entirely different for both of them?
I'd enlisted the aid of an English teacher to help with Elrohir, but neither of us could come up with a agreeable pronouciation of the above two.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 19, 2010 21:24:29 GMT -6
I know this is an old thread, but I have the same question as Ignoblebard - except different names. ELL-a-dan HAL-ba-rad EL-ro-heer In all of them, the stress is on the first syllable, and all are short vowels except the I in Elrohir.
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tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Sept 20, 2010 7:52:44 GMT -6
When in doubt, stress the first syllable.
Thanks muchly!
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Post by elfscribe on Sept 20, 2010 10:13:28 GMT -6
Tanis, The wiki Tolkien Gateway often has name pronunciations along with their bios, such as this one for Feanor: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Feanor. The pronunciation is located next to the speaker icon. But not all the names have this feature. There wasn't one for Elladan or Elrohir. I do get a giggle sometimes from all the strongly rolled r's in these pronunciations (which I could not hope to replicate) and wonder what scholarship the pronunciations are based on as some of them are different from the ones in my set of Silmarillion audio-recordings narrated by Martin Shaw. Darth, perhaps you know.
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Post by oshun on Sept 20, 2010 14:18:38 GMT -6
I do get a giggle sometimes from all the strongly rolled r's in these pronunciations
I love to try rolling the r's, but I'd probably tone it done a little if I were reading a story aloud just out of an insufficiently developed sense of theatricality. On the vowels (talking about Quenya here, not Sindarin)--I find Spanish pronunciation works pretty well for me (not saying it's accurate!). In my case, it's all about saying the words in my head in a way which helps me remember how they are spelled.
I think I probably told most people here about meeting Fiondil in the Metropolitan Museum when he was passing through NYC once a few years ago and sitting in the cafe talking about The Silmarillion and him correcting my pronunciation of every single character or place name! Ha! I was internally cracking up--at a certain point I think I began to think of worse and worse ways to pronounce certain significant characters' names. He never would have survived in some of the English-speaking ex-patriot circles in Latin America I have moved in--talk about cringe-worthy pronunciation of another language! OMG! It crosses from linguistically inept to borderline racist at a point.
I remember reading somewhere years ago that Liv Tyler's pronunciation of Sindarin in the movies was pretty good. I guess I have to wait for the film version of The Silmarillion to hear Quenya. This is causing me to give birth to a plot bunny. The difference between pronunciation of Quenya in Tirion and outlying areas, like Formenos. How about upper classes and lower classes? What does teamster Quenya sound like vs. professorial Quenya at the UofT?
I need to consult Darth's work again. Sounds like details he might have covered. I'm probably thinking of Fingon and Fingolfin massacring Sindarin early in his story cycle.
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Post by russandol on Sept 20, 2010 17:02:48 GMT -6
On the vowels (talking about Quenya here, not Sindarin)--I find Spanish pronunciation works pretty well for me (not saying it's accurate!). In my case, it's all about saying the words in my head in a way which helps me remember how they are spelled. I read Quenya as if it was Spanish, vowels, consonants and all, except for a couple of changes, if I can remember them at the time. My problem is confusing the sign for a long vowel in Quenya with the same symbol marking a stressed syllable (Spanish). I can't work out how you can have a stressed syllable without a long vowel, it does not enter my thick head. At that point I give up and go into "mental phonetics", which are brilliant, because no one can hear how crap my pronunciation is, not even myself!
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Post by oshun on Sept 20, 2010 17:34:07 GMT -6
a long vowel in Quenya with the same symbol marking a stressed syllable (Spanish). I can't work out how you can have a stressed syllable without a long vowel, it does not enter my thick head
You think you have thick head. For me it's like I can only hold two languages in my head at one time.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 20, 2010 18:35:26 GMT -6
This is causing me to give birth to a plot bunny. The difference between pronunciation of Quenya in Tirion and outlying areas, like Formenos. How about upper classes and lower classes? What does teamster Quenya sound like vs. professorial Quenya at the UofT? I need to consult Darth's work again. Sounds like details he might have covered. I'm probably thinking of Fingon and Fingolfin massacring Sindarin early in his story cycle. I do have some stuff in-story about various groups and how they pronounce their words. In NSNS, Glorfindel thinks Finrod's Vanyarin Quendya is strange, while Finrod can tell immediately that Glorfindel is fairly low class by the way he speaks. And I can't remember what it's in, but I know at one point Fingon tells Glorfindel he'd do better to keep his mouth shut at society functions because he sounds like a Sindarin blacksmith. (Fingon's advice is that words ought to come from behind one's teeth, not the back of one's throat.) And yes, Fingon and Fingolfin are rather terrible at Sindarin, having trouble with sounds like TH and CH that don't exist in Noldorin Quenya (but do exist in Vanyarin Quendya, so Glorfindel has the advantage there).
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Post by erulisse on Sept 21, 2010 5:52:57 GMT -6
I have always worked Quenya with a basic Italian (or basic Romance language) focus with heavy Latin underpinning. Sindarin always seems a bit looser - more into mid-Europe with flatter vowels. Valarin has Aztec underpinnings (that would be Nahuatl for those in the know).
I love languages, and although I don't speak my secondary languages well, I have a strong background in them and have always pronounced things from a more European standpoint than my US friends. Since my parents were from Europe, I guess that would account for my vowel pronunciations. So far I'm batting 100% with all of the names that have been mentioned, but I'm sure I'll fail miserably somewhere along the line and pronounce a name so badly that the individual wouldn't even recognize that he was being addressed.
- Erulisse (one L)
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tanis
Councillor
Posts: 257
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Post by tanis on Sept 21, 2010 12:13:32 GMT -6
The wiki Tolkien Gateway often has name pronunciations along with their bios, such as this one for Feanor: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Feanor. The pronunciation is located next to the speaker icon.I've been at the wiki TG many, many times and never noticed this feature. Oy! Thanks, Elfscribe, that's a great reference tool. But my god, you guys are doing it again. I'm soooooo intimidated by the vast experience and brains in this group! Spanish pronuciation of Quenya ... Sindarin mid-Europe ... Valarin with Aztec underpinnings ... my head is spinning.
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Post by russandol on Sept 21, 2010 13:50:11 GMT -6
I'm soooooo intimidated by the vast experience and brains in this group! Spanish pronuciation of Quenya ... Sindarin mid-Europe ... Valarin with Aztec underpinnings ... my head is spinning. Ermm, don't be. I have been a Lizard for less than a year, so no vast experience. And my brain is is currently behaving rather erratically, with lots of forgetful moments. The explanation in my case is easy: I am Spanish! ;D
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Post by elfscribe on Sept 21, 2010 14:51:57 GMT -6
One of the things I love about the folks in this fandom is that you all do have a lot of experience and expertise and bring that to augment the whole. I have loved finding a community that shares my interests in all this stuff -- something I don't usually run into in my normal tramp through life. I understand the feeling of intimidation. In my case, I truly feel as if I know nothing, but it doesn't stop me from jumping in to offer whatever bits I've gleaned here and there. I'm soooooo intimidated by the vast experience and brains in this group! Spanish pronuciation of Quenya ... Sindarin mid-Europe ... Valarin with Aztec underpinnings ... my head is spinning. Ermm, don't be. I have been a Lizard for less than a year, so no vast experience. And my brain is is currently behaving rather erratically, with lots of forgetful moments. The explanation in my case is easy: I am Spanish! ;D
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