Money in Valinor?

[elleth]

Long story short, do we know whether or not money existed in Valinor, specifically in early Valinor? The story right now is set around the completion of Tirion and before the arrival of the Teleri.

If there was money (which I find hard to rule out, a city running on gift economy and/or bartering only seems unlikely, and there is vocabulary to support it), but do we have any specific names or values for coins?

I looked through the Silm and Lost Tales especially, as well as the Quenya wordlist on Ardalambion, which states hat telpe was sometimes used as a general term for money, but then this is a Telerin form that can't have been in existence in Valinor before their arrival, and I'm not sure about aute, telpilin (same problem as above, I believe?), and kulusta as provided by the Qenya Lexicon. I know our Lizard Overlord uses the last two in his Glorfindel stories, so that should probably be good enough for me, but I'd still be interested in other opinions or ideas.

[mariamaria]

Being an economics major myself, I find it hard to jibe the idea of a civilization as complex and advanced as that of the elves in Aman operating in a pure barter system.
Now that being said, for a monetary equilibrium to exists, the fiat money (the money that has no intrinsic value of itself), must have value at all periods of time. If this does not hold true, then a monetary equilibrium would be impossible to achieve as people would not want to exchange their goods for money that in some t point of time will have no value at all. Given that the elves have such long lasting lives, and that the periods of their lives are not defined by a period where they'd be infirm and unable to work, you should think about this carefully.
I am sorry I cannot help with the Quenya though. I wish I could.

[erulisse]

As someone who works in a sales environment, even though it may seem difficult to have a barter system over a large scale economy, it can work. After all, it is all value and perceived value, whether it is a token denoting a certain value, or a chicken for a pot. The real difficulty comes with a stratified society such as they have, and the collection of taxes, public works projects, and the employment of subsequent generations in a society where there is no death. Economics was not Tolkien's forte, in fact, he carefully skirted the issue.

- Erulisse (one L)

[oshun]

I am the wrong person to respond to this, because I make my own rules as long as I don't encounter a statement in the LotR or the Silm which specifically says, "there was no cheese in Beleriand" or "everyone knows that the Eldar had no coin or currency and depended upon a barter system." I want to believe they had some form of money (building up and or constructing the environment of no money and barter over large areas wears on my patience). If someone wants to assert that there was a barter system they could probably convince me for the duration of their story, but then I would go right back to my original conception and write the Noldor in Tirion using money.

Even when there is something specific to counter an idea of mine, if there is a place in the text where I cannot accept Tolkien's green sun then I will write my own version. For me fanfiction is a place where I can alter the world to fit the story I want to tell.

[russandol]

Aug 27, 2011 18:51:05 GMT -6 oshun said:

For me fanfiction is a place where I can alter the world to fit the story I want to tell.

I'm in your camp, too. I love stories where the non-canon elements fit so well with the canon ones that they become as verosimile as the original Tolkien bits or more.

Regarding money, bartering is not always practical, so I believe they would eventually have developed a currency of some sort. I imagine it would be a combination of the two systems. For all we know, instead of using precious metals they may use seashells as currency, so your imagination is the limit there!

[mariamaria]

I am all about applying my geeky, under loved major to fanfiction.
I am so sad no one has asked me why people see the necessity of using fiat money (a commodity of no intrinsic value) at all. It is such a cool explanation too. ;D

[elleth]

Okay, I'll ask - what's the necessity of using fiat money? Just now that I had tentatively puzzled out that I was going to have my elves use a combination (like Russandol suggested) of bartering and commodity money... but all in all, considering the story is currently told from the PoV of a four-year-old, I'll do as Tolkien did and skirt the issue of in-depth economics unless completely necessary (money is still necessary as there's a market visit on schedule next).

Even when there is something specific to counter an idea of mine, if there is a place in the text where I cannot accept Tolkien's green sun then I will write my own version. For me fanfiction is a place where I can alter the world to fit the story I want to tell.

Oh, definitely true here as well. I do like to explore canon and play in it (hence asking here), but I'll make alterations of my own as well when or if that's necessary.

[mariamaria]

Well, a simple model of "money" starts with two generations, an old generation, and a new generation. The new generation is endowed with goods, but the goods cannot be kept until the next generation, and the old generation has nothing. The generations are overlapping. There will always be an old generation and a new generation.

So, in order for the older generations to have something, the new generation must be willing to trade their services for fiat money (commodity with no intrinsic use of itself), and when they turn old, they can exchange their money for goods and services with the younger generation.

So, in a simple model, the goods are always bestowed to the younger generation, not the old one, fiat money's must always be >1.

That way the older generation doesn't go, you know hungry. This is an oversimplified example (a model...) but it's useful to understand why perhaps elves did not need fiat money, as they never grew physically infirm or old of body.