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Post by kimberleighe on Feb 18, 2012 13:00:44 GMT -6
So, in writing part five of Swan's Song, I am focusing on what Ost-in-Edhil looks like and how it functions. I suppose this thread is really meant to be a discussion because I need help and I lack the necessary Tolkien book resources. Here follows are my questions/comments and I welcome both Tolkien proof and personal opinions!
1. Are there any descriptions of the City? I am proposing a circular and walled city (drawing off the influences of Gondolin/Tirion) with a number of gates. For example, a gate used most often by the smiths because it leads directly onto the road to Moria's gate. In looking up images, I found very few to help, so if anyone has links to any visual renderings, I'd love to see them.
2. Can I assume that this city would function similarly to Gondolin with a central leader(s) and different lords/ladies that oversee certain orders (ie: jewelers, musicians, masons, etc)? These leaders would form a sort of council for Galadriel and Celeborn.
So, O wise Lizards, please help me!
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Post by pandemonium on Feb 18, 2012 15:11:53 GMT -6
So, in writing part five of Swan's Song, I am focusing on what Ost-in-Edhil looks like and how it functions. I suppose this thread is really meant to be a discussion because I need help and I lack the necessary Tolkien book resources. Lacking the resources is, er, problematic. That said, Tolkien did not ever describe the city in detail, so much is left to conjecture. I'm among those who have thought long and hard about Ost-in-Edhil and Eregion, cf. The Apprentice, scattered chapters in its sequel (or at least following the main character of the latter novel) The Elendilmir (Chapters 6, 11, 17, and 22), Risk Assessment, and most recently, A Fragile Chalice. I'm also gearing up for what will likely amount to a novella about the crafting of the Mirror of Galadriel (in my 'verse, that occurs in Ost-in-Edhil) so the city and its folks are often on my mind. I offer these links not only as egregious (and shameless) self-promotion, but also as kind of a collection of what Ost-in-Edhil is like in my head. Just skim if you have any inclination to look at these. Don't know if they'll help or hinder, but there you are. No. But from the word "ost" (Sindarin) and "osto" (Quenya), one can assume it's a city with a "wall round." Roughly circular and walled are safe bets (see "Ost"). A number of gates in the fortifying wall might not be such a great strategy for defense, however. Gates within the city -- that would work (my vision of Ost-in-Edhil sees it that way ). Give me a moment and I'll find a rendering by Alan Lee, I believe, which isn't too bad. This was a mural used in the set of PJ's "Fellowship of the Ring." My Ost-in-Edhil's towers are a bit different, but the architecture recalls Graeco-Roman architecture and stonework but with an "elvish" embellishment of organic forms. Sounds good to me. In my vision, there are twelve guilds, which includes the guild of smiths and within that, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. In the Pandë!verse, I draw on Tolkien's comments from Letter 153 (Letters of JRRT, ed. H. Carpenter), written in Sept. 1954: The particular branch of the High-Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always on the side of 'science and technology', as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gilgalad and Elrond. The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves – an 'allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolised by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.So the smiths of the Pandë!verse are not just artisans. They are scientists and engineers, and at least a few of the guilds are oriented toward science and technology (with arts incorporated, too, being elves and all ): the Brotherhood of Smiths (similar to think tank type science; like the Institute of Advanced Study in Princeton), the Guild of Iron (ironwork, the heavy duty stuff), , the Guild of Stone (stonemasons, "architects", civil engineers), the House of the Heart (healers/biomedical sciences), and others. Whoops, getting diverted. But as Tolkien describes the Noldor, I'd say a guild structure with representatives in a council would be reasonable as you suggest. Russandol's vision of Ost-in-Edhil is a good one, and we did confer under-the-radar about it.
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Post by kimberleighe on Feb 18, 2012 17:06:29 GMT -6
Lacking the resources is, er, problematic. Somewhere between the last move, my books got "misplaced" as my hubby puts it. Of course, his things are all accounted for, but I'm still searching and hopefully! I shall take a glance and perhaps send an email to you for further dicussionquot; Oh! I face-palmed after a read this. It makes more sense! I was thinking of Game of Thrones and the main city with its many gates. However, given that the defenses of O-i-E have to be pretty top notch, the idea wouldn't work. I'm loving this diversion! I'm getting smiley because this is beautiful! What I'm seeing is that we still have the traditional artisans, but then there are those furthering the craft. For example, I know Feanor was able to make binocular/telescope type lenses, so the development of that simple technology is key for my oc. Otherwise I lose plausible reasoning for her to remain there. Thank you for the response; I was hoping to hear from you! Now, if I have to re-purchase books, which HoME or other texts would be most helpful? Russandol's vision of Ost-in-Edhil is a good one, and we did confer under-the-radar about it. [/quote]
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Post by randy on Feb 18, 2012 17:13:16 GMT -6
Beautiful, Pande! I 've seen the films multiple times but never really got a good look at that mural nor knew what it was of. That makes the scene where the Fellowship passes the ruins of Ost-in-Edhil that much more poignant.
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Post by pandemonium on Feb 18, 2012 17:41:45 GMT -6
Somewhere between the last move, my books got "misplaced" as my hubby puts it. Of course, his things are all accounted for, but I'm still searching and hopefully! OMG! I can't even tell you how neurotic I was about knowing exactly where my Tolkien stuff was when we moved from Princeton back to Boston! All was accounted for, thankfully! Heh. The compendium of the Pandë!verse (99% of which is interconnected) is an unwieldy beast. Please do feel free to email: docbushwellATgmailDOTcom. I can natter on and on about it, believe me! . Wait. What? Source for that? *Nods vigorously* That's fantastic! And very, very fitting for your OFC. The technology of my Ost-in-Edhil is not at all simple. It's a mix of technology ranging from that of ancient Rome to the 18th and even 19th century, not to mention the "scientifictitious" (the mysterious "deep arts" that can be applied at a molecular level). There are water-driven pumps, indoor plumbing (much like Rome with a combination of public baths and latrines, and for the wealthier echelons, private baths and latrines). One OFC, whom I have yet to write about extensively (but who is a critical character), is the Guildmaster of the House of the Heart. Although she "practices medicine" (significant injuries, complications of childbirth), she has a keen interest in the very small, i.e., "animalcules." She wonders what causes infections to decimate mortal populations and why these infections kill a mortal but are usually no more than a nuisance for elves.* Anyway, all that is to say that she has a microscope (probably similar to van Leeuwenhoek's), which is very treasured instrument. A few folks have telescopes, too. When my interest in Tolkien was reactivated a few years ago, I already had LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, purchased in the mid-60s and late 70s/early 80s. I jumped right in and bought all 12 volumes of HoMe, and I have found them to be a treasure trove. If I were to narrow down volumes of HoMe, I'd go with Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2, The Lays of Leithian (v 3), The Lost Road (v 5), Sauron Defeated, v 9, and vols 10 (esp. Morgoth's Ring) through 12. Heh. Not exactly narrow, is it? Heck, buy all 12. Have a look at Abe Books for great deals on these. *Because Elves and Men are "biologically the same race" to paraphrase Tolkien, in my 'verse, they must have the same receptors and such that bacteria and viruses can latch onto so they can become ill, just not as badly as a mortal might; elvish immune systems and their powerful fëa-hröa connection keep the bugs from turning fatal although rampant infection from a terrible battlefield injury (abdominal, for example) might overwhelm an elf's system and kill him or her. See Darth's essay Elvish Fanons and Canon Contradictions, cf. point 2.
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Post by pandemonium on Feb 18, 2012 17:47:00 GMT -6
Beautiful, Pande! I 've seen the films multiple times but never really got a good look at that mural nor knew what it was of. That makes the scene where the Fellowship passes the ruins of Ost-in-Edhil that much more poignant. It's a nice rendering, and I have used it for my banner on my ost-in-edhil LJ. The ruins in the movie seem a bit too small to be the whole city, but they could be a part of it.
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Post by grey gazania on Feb 18, 2012 18:46:51 GMT -6
One OFC, whom I have yet to write about extensively (but who is a critical character), is the Guildmaster of the House of the Heart. Although she "practices medicine" (significant injuries, complications of childbirth), she has a keen interest in the very small, i.e., "animalcules." She wonders what causes infections to decimate mortal populations and why these infections kill a mortal but are usually no more than a nuisance for elves.* Anyway, all that is to say that she has a microscope (probably similar to van Leeuwenhoek's), which is very treasured instrument. A few folks have telescopes, too. I am very much looking forward to seeing more of her. ;D
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Post by kimberleighe on Feb 18, 2012 20:26:47 GMT -6
Wait. What? Source for that? I'm using my phone but it's in The Silmarillion. I will get a page number and quote for you as soon as I find it. I remember it only because the Tolkien Professor spoke about it in a podcast EDIT: Here is the quote that infers the idea of binoculars/telescopes. "The first gems that Feanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwe" (Tolkien, pg. 66).Like I said above, I cannot claim that I saw this on my own, but I take this passage to show that early in Valinor, the technology was being created. I would assume that the Noldor would have only furthered it, especially with the aid of Annatar.
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Post by thoughtfulelf on Feb 24, 2012 5:23:43 GMT -6
EDIT: Here is the quote that infers the idea of binoculars/telescopes. "The first gems that Feanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwe" (Tolkien, pg. 66).Well, it might refer to the Palantíri (supposedly also created by Feanor), but I agree that it can be read as a reference to telescopes as well. As for Ost-in-Edhil itself... ah, one of my favourite subjects! As stated above, Tolkien didn't give us much in the way of description. There is the lament of the stones of Eregion as quoted by Legolas in LOTR: "deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us," which gives me a mental image of a gorgous city with high white towers and beautiful stonework everywhere - in other words, very much the image of Tirion (and, to a degree, Gondolin) indeed. What must not be forgotten is that, according to Tolkien, the ambition of the Noldor of Eregion, especially once encouraged by Annatar, was to essentially build "Valinor on (Middle) Earth". Tolkien presented it as very much a tale of hubris - whether you agree with that message is another thing, but envisioning Ost-in-Edhil as "New Tirion" is probably not far from the mark. I agree with Pandemonium re: indoor plumbing - it wouldn't do for progress-minded Noldor trying to build their own Valinor to s**t in the woods and bathe in the river, now would it? The idea of them being organised in guilds seems plausible to me, too. One OFC, whom I have yet to write about extensively (but who is a critical character), is the Guildmaster of the House of the Heart. Although she "practices medicine" (significant injuries, complications of childbirth), she has a keen interest in the very small, i.e., "animalcules." She wonders what causes infections to decimate mortal populations and why these infections kill a mortal but are usually no more than a nuisance for elves.* Anyway, all that is to say that she has a microscope (probably similar to van Leeuwenhoek's), which is very treasured instrument. A few folks have telescopes, too. I am very much looking forward to seeing more of her. ;D Seconded!
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