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Post by Urloth on Mar 11, 2012 5:31:31 GMT -6
A question I posed on another site; how in Cuiviénen was time measured? With no sun/moon/physics defying trees/clocks I doubt they had days and nights so how did everybody work out when to sleep etc?
What did they call these time periods? I though star-cycle at first but on reflection that sounds more like what they might call a season perhaps. Anybody have a idea?
Also did they have seasons in Cuiviénen dya think?
I'm leaning towards yes seasons but no clue about what they would call their "days"
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Post by elleth on Mar 11, 2012 10:38:37 GMT -6
Interesting questions - I've been struggling with the same things for writing my Mithrim Sindar prior to the rise of Sun and Moon, so here's some input. Seasons: Strongly depends on how scientific you want the foundation of your stories to be - going by the published Silmarillion, with a flat Earth, it's fairly unlikely there are seasons of any sort. Plant life at that time (after the destruction of Illuin and Ormal) was put into the "Sleep of Yavanna" without any closer definition, but that probably implies that there were only very slow changes (more on that below). In my stories I've put any existing seasonal variation down to the Valar meddling (they needed to exist because my version of the Mithrim Sindar are, semi-canonically, nomadic hunter-gatherers and that lifestyle wouldn't make too much sense otherwise), i.e. winters as Morgoth's perversion of Manwe and Ulmo's work that they can't undo but in turn forced into a sort of regular pattern in order to enable the Elves of Middle-earth to prepare. Basically, it's all magic and a lot of handwaving, but you're welcome to run with the idea if it works for you. Measure of Time: Stars do change position, probably enough to allow people reliant on them to extrapolate their own patterns. There is *some* movement of stars in Middle-earth; again going by the published Silmarillion. 'Of Thingol and Melian' has this to say: ... so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word. Since stars rotate their own axis, the movement must come from Middle-earth - so there's both movement and plant growth despite that nebulous "Sleep of Yavanna". If not that, I'm sure the Cuiviénen Elves have the technology to establish and impose artificial cycles - the time it takes for a fire (or torch, candle, whathaveyou) of any given size to burn down. Plus, and this is to be taken with a ton of salt because I have no backing in medicine and no idea how constant darkness as the normal state of things would influence it, but Elves quite probably have some sort of circadian rhythm anyway. It's based on environmental changes, especially light, in our primary world, so perhaps you could posit that Elves possess a highly sensitive one to... eh, detect changes in the brightness of stars, and a great awareness of time by its physical definition (which would fit with canonical notions, I suppose?). I do apologize if this is total rubbish, but it might further help them coordinate any measurements they find or create. Of course, all that is is magical, mythical exaggeration and me contorting myself to fit with the published Silm's notions and can be scrapped entirely if you instead decide to adopt Myths Transformed.  |
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Post by pandemonium on Mar 11, 2012 12:27:22 GMT -6
... can be scrapped entirely if you instead decide to adopt Myths Transformed. HA! Which is precisely what I did. Urloth, if you're sticking to the mythic version of Cuiviénen, then trying to graft the more scientific (and "real") is a HUGE stretch IMO. Better to gloss over time-keeping and just keep it all poetic/mythic, e.g. "the stars wheeled overhead" as the esteemed Elleth notes. Not sure how there would be seasons either, given that there is no sun in the sky. It would take a LOT to convince me that circadian rhythms could be possible in a "starlit" world. See the comment about photosynthesis below. One could make a similar argument about rhodopsin in Elvish retinas, i.e., if, like Tolkien wrote, elves are biologically akin to mortal Men, then it's unlikely that even remotely enough photons can be gathered to trigger circadian rhythms. In the way back machine, several of us had quite a lively conversation about the possibility of photosynthesis in the "starlit" world. One of our pals, a brilliant engineer, was putting forth the argument of the existence of some superduper pigment could collect photons from the stars. Surgical Steel and I, both terribly pedantic life-science types, had significant arguments against it. Such a pigment would be even more fantastical (in the context of Tolkien's natural history of Middle-earth) than jewelry that causes the wearer to become invisible. It's similar to contortions that a very canon orthodox writer tried to make to justify a flat earth. Just. Don't. Wave the wizard's wand (to paraphrase Tolkien) and make it mythic. And that, I think, is a wonderful challenge for a writer! I'm lazy and go for the "round earth" cosmogony in "Myths Transformed." |
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Post by elleth on Mar 11, 2012 14:06:52 GMT -6
Now I'm curious. I quite agree, and tons of fun to boot! Not to mention that spelling out everything, no matter what you decide as the explanation for various matters surrounding your Cuiviénen Elves, would make a story eminently less readable. |
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Post by pandemonium on Mar 11, 2012 14:26:27 GMT -6
Now I'm curious. Heh. I'm trying to remember...I don't think it was on the Heretic Loremaster. Maybe on the SWG Yahoo group? At any rate, the canon orthodox writer trotted out possible distances between Númenor and Tol Eresseëa, i.e., that the latter could be glimpsed by the far-sighted from the summit of Meneltarma and how that justified a flat earth in Tolkien's world. There were a few of us who might have suggested that regarding it as mythic hyperbole rather than scientific fact might be the safer approach. Exactly. Whether mythic or scientific, too much explanation bogs down a narrative. This isn't to say I'm guiltless of too much explanation, but these days, I try to come up with metaphor to describe scientific notions, e.g., I'm indulging in the first draft of the next chapter of the Mirror fic (hmmm, tentatively titled A Writhen Pool) in which Mélamírë and the Istyar have alluded to "the Threads of Vairë," a.k.a. string theory.  |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Mar 11, 2012 15:26:06 GMT -6
Heh. I'm trying to remember...I don't think it was on the Heretic Loremaster. Maybe on the SWG Yahoo group? At any rate, the canon orthodox writer trotted out possible distances between Númenor and Tol Eresseëa, i.e., that the latter could be glimpsed by the far-sighted from the summit of Meneltarma and how that justified a flat earth in Tolkien's world. There were a few of us who might have suggested that regarding it as mythic hyperbole rather than scientific fact might be the safer approach. I recall that discussion. I remember where it happened, too. I'm about 99% sure it was on the 'Numenorean Writers' and Researchers' Guild' group created by the now-infamous Lady Roisin. |
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Post by pandemonium on Mar 11, 2012 15:38:40 GMT -6
I recall that discussion. I remember where it happened, too. I'm about 99% sure it was on the 'Numenorean Writers' and Researchers' Guild' group created by the now-infamous Lady Roisin. OMG! That's right! What a hoot. IIRC, you, Dawn, and I made a few, uh, remarks. |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Mar 11, 2012 15:44:50 GMT -6
*snicker* Yep. I think I may have also made a few remarks regarding the fact that Elendil couldn't have really been that tall unless he had acromegaly. I like the Myths Transformed version much better - the flat world never made sense to me. I mean, sure if you're going for the utterly ridiculous (like Pratchett's Discworld), but if you're going for a serious, believable world, Myths Transformed works better. Plus, it gave me canon justification for Far Side of the World. |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Mar 11, 2012 16:05:00 GMT -6
The circadian rhythm's pretty much completely based on light/dark cycles - without cyclical light/dark changes, you don't have a circadian rhythm. Too much light's theorized to be one of the causes of ICU psychosis - a condition in which ICU patients frankly go nuts. Putting those patients in rooms where you can dim the lights at night seriously reduces the incidence of the condition. IIRC, Arctic animals only demonstrates circadian rhythms during those periods of the year in which there's sunrise and sunset. The circadian rhythm in humans - which elves are, per Tolkien's Letter #153 - is dependent on photosensitive ganglion cells in the retina transmitting information to the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus and somehow (exact mechanism unclear) interacting with the pineal gland and melatonin. Those changes in brightness of very distant stars - if one presumes that an elf could detect it with the naked eye, it'd have to be a very, very regularly cyclical change for it to set up a circadian rhythm. Easier, IMO, to scrap the absolutely no sun or moon thing and go with Myths Transformed.But that's just the opinion of one surgeon-turned EMR content developer. |
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Post by Urloth on Mar 11, 2012 16:20:51 GMT -6
ffff *keyboard spasm* you guys are awesome. *Gets out reading glasses and sits down to read all of this over a few times*
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Post by pandemonium on Mar 11, 2012 16:28:19 GMT -6
... dependent on photosensitive ganglion cells in the retina transmitting information to the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus and somehow (exact mechanism unclear) interacting with the pineal gland and melatonin. So is it hopelessly geeky that I find it amusing that you, surgeon-turned EMR content developer, think in terms of exquisitely detailed anatomy, whereas this biochemist-turned-regulatory-medical-writer thinks in terms of of sufficient photons to trigger effective signaling responses from the receptor? I think the frilly lace trimming of our respective disciplines is showing. |
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Post by surgicalsteel on Mar 11, 2012 16:40:07 GMT -6
Geeky's a good thing, IMO. |
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