The War of Wrath - Who fought in it again?

[grey gazania]

I'm trying to figure out if any of the surviving elves in Beleriand fought in the War of Wrath, particularly Gil-galad. (Mom's got the crawlspace open and all her tax files out, so my copies of HoME are currently inaccessible.) What I've turned up on google is conflicting - some places say no elves who hadn't come over from Valinor fought, and some say Gil-galad and some elves from Balar fought. The Silmarillion just has one rather ambiguous passage:

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.

Is there anything that definitively says yea or nay?

[Spiced Wine]

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.

I always thought that meant that none of the Noldor (in Beleriand) marched with the Valar, therefore they couldn't describe the arming in Valinor or how the host came to the north of the world -- the actual march itself.

But of the war itself, I cannot believe that Gil-galad didn't take up arms, and won't believe it. It would make no sense to me. He does my stuff, because this is one time where even if canon specified that he didn't, I would ignore it. The Elves on Middle-earth had suffered Morgoth's power, and I believe they would definitely have fought in the war. (I do make Gil-galad Fingon's son, and he would go to war in memory of his father, if nothing else.)

[elleth]

Oh, good question! I have another and somewhat ambiguous citation that might shed some light. Or obfuscate further. (Sorry.)

Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. 'I remember well the splendour of their banners,' he said. 'It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.'

It's not necessarily an eyewitness account, but as Elrond wasn't born until far after the Nirnaeth, it could easily be interpreted the way that the 'hosts of Beleriand' participated in the War of Wrath alongside the Vanyarin, Noldorin and Valarin hosts (the Teleri ferried them all across, but don't seem to have set foot on land). On the other hand, at the time of the War of Wrath, Hithlum, Doriath, Nargothrond, Gondolin (and later Sirion with the remnants from the destroyed realms) have all been destroyed, which leaves Círdan and Gil-galad as the only possible Elves of Beleriand who could have participated. (And hey. While I can definitely see wanting to get canon right despite writing an AU, it also gives you some freedom to deviate, if necessary.)

[Elf of cave]

If you only look at what’s written, then it seems to indicate that the Exiles didn’t participate in the WoW. But, I think you can make some arguments that they did fight (which in my world they did).

1) As Spiced Wine points out: Morgoth did cause the Elves much suffering, and if the Edain wanted to avenge Húrin, Huor etc. then the Elves would certainly want to avenge Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Gondolin, Nargothrond, Hithlum, the Falas and so on.

2)Even if the Exiles were for some reason forbidden to join the armies of the West, nothing could have stopped them from fighting their own battles in other parts of Beleriand (Morgoth did seem to have gained control over most of the land at that time).

3) Even though The Silmarillion states that “legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind” lets not forget that the War lasted for more than 40 years, so it wasn’t simply a walk in the park for the armies of Valinor. And, lets face it, the (no doubt) numerous and well-equipped armies consisted mostly of rookies, many of which would have been born in Valinor and therefore didn’t have any comprehension of the enemy they were facing, which could prove fatal if they froze with fear and horror in the middle of a battle. So it would have been careless and immensely arrogant if the leaders of the armies of Valinor didn’t take advantage of the combat-experienced Elves of Beleriand, and of their knowledge of the enemy fighting-styles, their tactics, layout of the lands etc. (or maybe that's exactly the reason why the War lasted for so long )

So, in my opinion, placing Gil-galad in the WoW is stretching canon, not breaking it.

[Spiced Wine]

So it would have been careless and immensely arrogant if the leaders of the armies of Valinor didn’t take advantage of the combat-experienced Elves of Beleriand, and of their knowledge of the enemy fighting-styles, their tactics, layout of the lands etc

I totally agree with that. They were fine with the Elves and Edain forming a bulwark against Melkor getting too uppity and perhaps trying to invade Valinor, which I think he might well have attempted at some point, had not the Noldor been so handily in the way.
The Elves (and Men) of Beleriand had been at war a long time, and their losses were indescribable. Not 'allowing' them to fight for any reason would simply show the Valar had no understanding of what the Elves and later the Men had endured in those hundreds of years, and of their natures. (I'd say that the Valar would have no right to do such a thing, anyhow, as they left the Hither Lands for Valinor long before, and to suddenly march in and say 'Leave it to us, guys,' would be unconscionable.

Even if the Exiles were for some reason forbidden to join the armies of the West, nothing could have stopped them from fighting their own battles in other parts of Beleriand (Morgoth did seem to have gained control over most of the land at that time).

And this. It might stretch canon, but does not break it to my mind. That quote by Elrond always made me think that he did see (and participate in) the War of Wrath, and all the hosts gathered to fight.

[grey gazania]

Mar 15, 2012 3:51:46 GMT -6 Spiced Wine said:

I always thought that meant that none of the Noldor (in Beleriand) marched with the Valar, therefore they couldn't describe the arming in Valinor or how the host came to the north of the world -- the actual march itself.

That is a much more sensible way of interpreting the quote! Thank you.

Mar 15, 2012 6:08:29 GMT -6 elleth said:

Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. 'I remember well the splendour of their banners,' he said. 'It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.'

It's not necessarily an eyewitness account, but as Elrond wasn't born until far after the Nirnaeth, it could easily be interpreted the way that the 'hosts of Beleriand' participated in the War of Wrath alongside the Vanyarin, Noldorin and Valarin hosts.

I forgot about that one! Didn't even think to check LotR, derpaherp. I always took that account to be a comparison between the War of Wrath and the War of the Last Alliance; I figure Elrond and Elros have to have met with the host from Valinor at the very least, since they got hold of the ring of Barahir and Tuor's axe.

Mar 15, 2012 9:43:40 GMT -6 Elf of cave said:

And, lets face it, the (no doubt) numerous and well-equipped armies consisted mostly of rookies, many of which would have been born in Valinor and therefore didn’t have any comprehension of the enemy they were facing, which could prove fatal if they froze with fear and horror in the middle of a battle. So it would have been careless and immensely arrogant if the leaders of the armies of Valinor didn’t take advantage of the combat-experienced Elves of Beleriand, and of their knowledge of the enemy fighting-styles, their tactics, layout of the lands etc. (or maybe that's exactly the reason why the War lasted for so long )

Absolutely excellent point! You are all fabulously helpful.

[oshun]

Mar 15, 2012 9:43:40 GMT -6 Elf of cave said:

If you only look at what’s written, then it seems to indicate that the Exiles didn’t participate in the WoW. But, I think you can make some arguments that they did fight (which in my world they did).

1) As Spiced Wine points out: Morgoth did cause the Elves much suffering, and if the Edain wanted to avenge Húrin, Huor etc. then the Elves would certainly want to avenge Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Gondolin, Nargothrond, Hithlum, the Falas and so on.

2)Even if the Exiles were for some reason forbidden to join the armies of the West, nothing could have stopped them from fighting their own battles in other parts of Beleriand (Morgoth did seem to have gained control over most of the land at that time).

3) Even though The Silmarillion states that “legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind” lets not forget that the War lasted for more than 40 years, so it wasn’t simply a walk in the park for the armies of Valinor. And, lets face it, the (no doubt) numerous and well-equipped armies consisted mostly of rookies, many of which would have been born in Valinor and therefore didn’t have any comprehension of the enemy they were facing, which could prove fatal if they froze with fear and horror in the middle of a battle. So it would have been careless and immensely arrogant if the leaders of the armies of Valinor didn’t take advantage of the combat-experienced Elves of Beleriand, and of their knowledge of the enemy fighting-styles, their tactics, layout of the lands etc. (or maybe that's exactly the reason why the War lasted for so long )

So, in my opinion, placing Gil-galad in the WoW is stretching canon, not breaking it.

I think your strongest point is your third one.

So what do you think Elrond was talking about? Could be the War of Wrath, could be the War against Sauron in Eregion, but the second always seemed to me like a series of smaller battles and none so great as the Unnumbered Tears or the end game part of the War of Wrath. I like to think he was describing the War of Wrath for my only personal creative reasons.

I tend to approach the collective canon as an investigative reporter would approach a mystery and look at the logic of all the pieces instead of searching for one single definitive citation. There are very few instances of such citations, but rather almost always a collection of slightly different ones which contradict and/or support one another.

So I would disagree with you that it is stretching canon all that much.

I am recovering from the flu and unable to pull together all my citations at the moment (I do not even think I kept them together in any organized way cause I was doing for my own satisfaction). But I came to that conclusion based upon logic and looking at the entirety of references throughout HoMe, the published Silmarillion being one among many. I did the research not for any scholarly piece, but for my own personal storytelling purposes.

[russandol]

Mar 16, 2012 15:29:00 GMT -6 oshun said:

So what do you think Elrond was talking about? Could be the War of Wrath, could be the War against Sauron in Eregion, but the second always seemed to me like a series of smaller battles and none so great as the Unnumbered Tears or the end game part of the War of Wrath. I like to think he was describing the War of Wrath for my only personal creative reasons.

I subscribe to your interpretation for my own persoanl creative reasons, too. Also, in my view, logic supports a joint army from both Valinor and Middle-earth. If nothing else, the Host of the Valar (I always wondered at the fancy name, because if Eonwe was leading them I imagine there were no Valar to be found, or he would have deferred to them) would need scouts, provisions, etc. unless they lived for years on fresh water and coimas (and either they carried a 40-year worth of supplies or what?). Now, would you, as a ruler of a Middle-earth realm, just say to Eonwe: "Of course! Please help yourself to the food you need, steal my guides, just have anything you want and we'll wait for you here twiddling our thumbs while you finish off our enemy"? It doesn't make sense. Finally, how could Eonwe or anyone else really prevent the men from Middle-earth from joining in?

I tend to approach the collective canon as an investigative reporter would approach a mystery and look at the logic of all the pieces instead of searching for one single definitive citation. There are very few instances of such citations, but rather almost always a collection of slightly different ones which contradict and/or support one another.

Yes, I agree! Best to build an overall view that makes sense from the pieces of evidence.

[Elf of cave]

Mar 16, 2012 15:29:00 GMT -6 oshun said:

So what do you think Elrond was talking about?

I have always automatically assumed that when Elrond spoke of “the hosts of Beleriand” he was talking about the armies of Valinor, but Elrond might have seen them when they landed in Beleriand not necessarily seeing them in action during the War.

Mar 16, 2012 15:29:00 GMT -6 oshun said:

I tend to approach the collective canon as an investigative reporter would approach a mystery and look at the logic of all the pieces instead of searching for one single definitive citation. There are very few instances of such citations, but rather almost always a collection of slightly different ones which contradict and/or support one another.

Which is why it’s so fun to discuss Tolkien’s world – especially topics like this one. On one hand you can make reasonable arguments against the Exiles fighting in the WoW, but on the other hand you can also make reasonable arguments for them participating in it. In the end it comes down, as you say, to our own personal preferences.[/quote]

Mar 16, 2012 15:29:00 GMT -6 oshun said:

I like to think he was describing the War of Wrath for my only personal creative reasons.

I agree to that. In my mind Elrond (and Elros, and the Exiles) did fight in the WoW, mostly because I would find it very unwise if Gil-galad put Elrond in charge of an army if he’s going to his very first battle. And, because I imagine Gil-galad as being a clever king, Elrond must have proven at some point that he is a good tactician and, more importantly, can keep a cool head in the midst of battle; and the only time he would have had a chance of proving this before the war of Eregion was during the WoW.