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Post by kimberleighe on Apr 15, 2012 11:15:44 GMT -6
Let me start this by explaining what I understand the canon interpretation of the measurement of time in comparison to the years of the Sun. 1 day= 12 hours; 1,000 days= 1 Year of the Trees; 1 Year of the Trees= roughly 10 years of the Sun.So my first question would be to ensure that the above understanding is correct. Now: Do the Elves develop slower under the Light of the Trees? I'm having a difficult time with this idea and I may be attempting too much specificity. My biggest hurdle has been in thinking about pregnancy and the fact it lasts a year. I know I have the ability to perhaps get creative here (pregnancy lasts "x" amount of days in contrast to a set year), but I'd like to hear if anyone else has addressed this issue, and how. I did check out this thread but I didn't see what I was looking for. |
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Post by oshun on Apr 16, 2012 16:02:53 GMT -6
Let me start this by explaining what I understand the canon interpretation of the measurement of time in comparison to the years of the Sun. 1 day= 12 hours; 1,000 days= 1 Year of the Trees; 1 Year of the Trees= roughly 10 years of the Sun.So my first question would be to ensure that the above understanding is correct. Now: Do the Elves develop slower under the Light of the Trees? I'm having a difficult time with this idea and I may be attempting too much specificity. My biggest hurdle has been in thinking about pregnancy and the fact it lasts a year. I know I have the ability to perhaps get creative here (pregnancy lasts "x" amount of days in contrast to a set year), but I'd like to hear if anyone else has addressed this issue, and how. I did check out this thread but I didn't see what I was looking for. I have never been able to wrap my mind around the math behind years of the trees vs. years of the sun and 12-hour days. It's hard enough for me to grasp the idea of why I have to think about a 40-year-old elf being a teenager. My brain shuts down and I go back to thinking about the story and the characters and giving a minimal nod only to the math involved. No help at all here! Sorry! Good luck with that. |
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Post by elleth on Apr 16, 2012 17:56:12 GMT -6
I'm sure there are canonical notes on this - just please don't ask me to dig them up... but the gist of it is that the "value" of the time differs. Basically (since you mentioned an elven pregnancy) the time between elven conception and birth would take a Year of the Trees in Aman, and a year of "normal" sun time in Middle-earth.
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Post by oshun on Apr 16, 2012 18:09:04 GMT -6
I'm sure there are canonical notes on this - just please don't ask me to dig them up... but the gist of it is that the "value" of the time differs. Basically (since you mentioned an elven pregnancy) the time between elven conception and birth would take a Year of the Trees in Aman, and a year of "normal" sun time in Middle-earth. My question always is. OK. That's fabulous. Now, I think I will just pretend like a year is a year and that days are twelve hours long and so are nights--like in the tropics. I think I am a personal of small imagination. I want fictional characters and a world I can relate to. I guess you could argue I am missing half the fun. |
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Post by elleth on Apr 16, 2012 21:49:23 GMT -6
My question always is. OK. That's fabulous. Now, I think I will just pretend like a year is a year and that days are twelve hours long and so are nights--like in the tropics. I think I am a personal of small imagination. I want fictional characters and a world I can relate to. I guess you could argue I am missing half the fun. Heh, I'm glad you found that helpful.  And person of small imagination? Seriously? I haven't known you long, but from what I read in your journal, here, and in your fics, that is about the LAST thing I'd have ascribed to you. Interests differ, but even so none of us would be here if not for fictional charactes and worlds we can relate to, even if the world in question has kinks that need some ruminating about. |
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Post by oshun on Apr 16, 2012 22:07:24 GMT -6
My question always is. OK. That's fabulous. Now, I think I will just pretend like a year is a year and that days are twelve hours long and so are nights--like in the tropics. I think I am a personal of small imagination. I want fictional characters and a world I can relate to. I guess you could argue I am missing half the fun. Heh, I'm glad you found that helpful. And person of small imagination? Seriously? I haven't known you long, but from what I read in your journal, here, and in your fics, that is about the LAST thing I'd have ascribed to you. Interests differ, but even so none of us would be here if not for fictional characters and worlds we can relate to, even if the world in question has kinks that need some ruminating about. I'm sincerely sorry. I am not denigrating your effort to explain it. I have my pet obsessions within canon also, I just cannot make myself do the numbers for this one. I suspect maybe I am a little bit dyslexic or maybe just lazy.  I wish they had one of these faces with the eyes crossing and the brain freezing with confusion over tree years. The underlying thing I wonder about here is whether or not this means that people cannot enjoy my stories because I bend over backwards to avoid the question of ordinary years, long years, sun years, or tree years or hours in the day in Valinor in my stories? |
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Post by elleth on Apr 16, 2012 22:54:38 GMT -6
Hey - I didn't mean to say that I felt you denigrated it - I'm sincerely glad you found my explanation helpful, because I know it's been bugging the hell out of me. Ask GG about all the hair-tearing that went on when I tried to work out the times and dates for Maglor and his wife - who is a Sinda and only about 40 when the Noldor return - but all timelines are given in Years of the Trees... so I'm really really not blaming you for finding this hard to wrap your mind around. I was trying to cheer you up, in fact, because you did sound awfully unsure of yourself in the post above. But as for the enjoyment of stories, I think people are very willing to overlook inconsistencies when they find the writing good and the story and characters engaging. And yours, I'm sure many people will honestly say (I do, even if I'm terrible at reviewing) are both. A lot of the blood, sweat and tears that go into a fic do remain invisible, after all. It's just easy to forget considering we're on a writing crit board here. Long story short, please don't put yourself down?  |
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Post by russandol on Apr 17, 2012 1:21:36 GMT -6
I'm sure there are canonical notes on this - just please don't ask me to dig them up... but the gist of it is that the "value" of the time differs. Basically (since you mentioned an elven pregnancy) the time between elven conception and birth would take a Year of the Trees in Aman, and a year of "normal" sun time in Middle-earth. I never tweaked on this fact. I'd love to know where it's explained, but I won't ask you to dig it up, I'll search myself when I have a bit more time. It's off to work now, sadly. |
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mariamaria
Pretty Good Sneech 
Thangorodrim's Hospitality Specialist
Posts: 104
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Post by mariamaria on Apr 17, 2012 5:54:44 GMT -6
Hmm, in all truthfulness I don't think Tolkien was all that concerned in explaining elven passage of time and he didn't think this through very much. If I were you I would improve on his methodology.
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Post by elleth on Apr 17, 2012 7:21:08 GMT -6
He did agonize about the passage of time in Middle-earth, in fact. Tolkien Gateway did type up the maths from the Annals of Aman (in MR) here: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Years_of_the_Trees, and the Earliest Annals of Aman (SoMe) also have some notes on times, among others on the equivalence of Sun Years and Valian Years. There also are intriguing tidbits in those that work out chronology for the world at large... though of course it's a very early conception, which also still has the Eriol story, so the canonicity may be a bit doubtful. |
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Post by oshun on Apr 17, 2012 9:37:53 GMT -6
He did agonize about the passage of time in Middle-earth, in fact. Tolkien Gateway did type up the maths from the Annals of Aman (in MR) here: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Years_of_the_Trees, and the Earliest Annals of Aman (SoMe) also have some notes on times, among others on the equivalence of Sun Years and Valian Years. There also are intriguing tidbits in those that work out chronology for the world at large... though of course it's a very early conception, which also still has the Eriol story, so the canonicity may be a bit doubtful. That leads to a blank page. Can you check that link again and see if you got it right? (I gotta look! After all my protestations that I don't want to think about the questions!!) |
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Post by elleth on Apr 17, 2012 9:59:22 GMT -6
The link is correct, it just attached a comma from the text I'd written. Remove that once the URL is in your address bar, and you'll be fine.
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I wish they had one of these faces with the eyes crossing and the brain freezing with confusion over tree years. The underlying thing I wonder about here is whether or not this means that people cannot enjoy my stories because I bend over backwards to avoid the question of ordinary years, long years, sun years, or tree years or hours in the day in Valinor in my stories? 
