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Post by thelauderdale on Jun 29, 2012 20:09:31 GMT -6
I do not own the History of Middle-earth volumes, but I could swear - I could SWEAR - that Tolkien makes an aside at some point about the hypothetical notion of an Orc being raised by Elves, and how such a creature would be indistinguishable from other Elves, unless it then encountered another Orc, upon which both would be struck with an overwhelming hatred and would immediately try to destroy one another. I really wish I could find this passage again. It's so odd, because it is all so particular: If an Orc was raised by Elves, and if it then saw another Orc, then... Plus the idea of this immediate sense of self-recognition/loathing. Plus the idea that an Orc could be indistinguishable in appearance from an Elf. (I read a very eerie story from Marta once that kind of went with the latter: dl.dropbox.com/u/11470456/Fanfic/respite.htmBy this (horrific) way of thinking, Orcs, at birth, really are indistinguishable from Elves. Are, by implication, one and the same with Elves. And so the "making" of Orcs is something that must happen again and again and again, with each generation, with each birth.) So I raised this in someone's livejournal a while back, and I'm coming back to it because I still don't have a source, nor do I think I made it up, because I tend to err on the side of Orcs who are more typically Ogrish or "monstrous" in appearance. Figured that if I mentioned it again here, someone might be able to tell me where it came from.
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Post by elfscribe on Jun 29, 2012 20:44:00 GMT -6
Hi Lauderdale, welcome to the Lizards. Glad to see you here. I'm afraid I don't know the quote you're seeking. I have forgotten so much stuff that I once knew to be frightened about the continuing process of brain melt.
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Post by thelauderdale on Jun 29, 2012 20:51:16 GMT -6
Hey elfscribe. I knew I was going to meet classy people here. You know, I wonder if HoME is available for Kindle yet, because if it was and it was a good deal, I totally would buy that...
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Post by aearwen on Jun 30, 2012 0:33:21 GMT -6
In case you didn't know, the YaHell group LOTR-Research (LOTR-Research@yahoogroups.com) has all of HoME in PDF format in their files section. I downloaded it a while back, and it's really helped out a lot as I've been slowly purchasing actual hard-copy volumes. I think I'm still missing a few.... Anyhoo, you might be able to do a bit of research if you get a hold of those files... Just sayin... FWIW, I think it's gonna be VERY interesting having an orc afficionada here. Glad you've joined us!
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Post by randy on Jun 30, 2012 10:03:27 GMT -6
*scratches armpit and breaks wind*
Yes, what I don't know about orcs would fill volumes, but I think the quote you're remembering sounds like fanfic, or maybe one of the Tolkien bloggers like Michael Martinez opining. They're not always wrong, but I wouldn't hang my canon hat on them.
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Post by elleth on Jun 30, 2012 17:14:04 GMT -6
I couldn't turn up a reference for the question either. There is one mention in (I think) the Silmarillion that contemplates the origin of Orcs as Avari who had grown evil in the wild, or something to that effect, but (even though we all know Tolkien is prone to contradiction) the part about Orcs being indistinguishable from Elves seems to be ruled out by his description (coming with a hefty peppering of questionable opinions).
His Letter 153 seems to contradict the idea of Orcs and Elves being this similar as well, because the former were by default tainted as creatures of Morgoth's creation, if tolerated by Eru out of necessity (or, Tolkien says, they would not be permitted to exist). The idea of an Orc being raised by Elves is intriguing, but I agree with Randy that this sounds more like a thought experiment or opinion rather than canon. Sorry.
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Post by thelauderdale on Jun 30, 2012 20:23:00 GMT -6
If I could nail down whose thought experiment it was I would be very happy. I'll have to keep looking. I've read some Martinez essays, but I don't remember any by him that would have touched on this (pretty sure I know each of his Orc essays, but it's always possible he's written more.)
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Post by randy on Jun 30, 2012 20:40:07 GMT -6
I know that ideas from fanfiction get mixed in with ideas from canon, so much that you can't tell the difference. I had to ask if Tolkien himself had ever said Elves could run through tree branches without touching the ground. (Neat idea, but he didn't ever say that.)
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Post by thelauderdale on Jul 9, 2012 7:51:23 GMT -6
I've used references to the light footsteps of Elves (the notion that they can walk along the top of the snow) or their supposed radiance (the fanon conceit of a racial trait rather than a special property of those who've seen Aman), but tried not to be too strong on it. Like, "Okay, it's always *possible* that guy's imagination got the better of him..."
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Post by lilithlessfair on Jul 9, 2012 9:06:49 GMT -6
I've been searching for this but haven't yet found the reference. I'm still looking but also can't wait to see if someone else has a bit more luck.
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Post by thoughtfulelf on Jul 11, 2012 3:37:19 GMT -6
their supposed radiance (the fanon conceit of a racial trait rather than a special property of those who've seen Aman) Well, Tolkien wrote about Elrond, who definitely wasn't born in Aman, "his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars," so my take on it is that there is some light in the eyes of all Elves, it's just that the "radiance" of those who've seen the light of the Trees is much stronger.
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Post by thelauderdale on Jul 19, 2012 11:44:45 GMT -6
I just saw this. Thank you for pointing out the light in Elrond's eyes - I had forgotten it.
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