Sailing to Númenor

[sanna]

Didn't know where to put this but this thread had an appropriate title so here goes:

A 9th Century Arabic trading vessel was found near Indonesia some time ago. It was so well preserved that a perfect replica was made, and now it sails the same trade routes as its predecessor.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8632302.stm

www.jewelofmuscat.tv/

[oshun]

Great pictures. Great ship.

[kymahalei]

Thanks for the tidbit, Sanna. The links are awesome. Really story-worthy stuff. . .

[elfscribe]

Thanks Sanna. Cool pics.

[erulisse]

If you are postulating later Numenor, sail boats would be a wonderful alternative and the caravel would be a good choice - after all it worked very well for the Portuegese. But if you are placing things in early Numenor, I suspect that the Viking longship might be more accurate since that is probably closer to what the swan ships of the Teleri were like. In either case, you're looking at a total number of crew to be 10-25 depending on the type of ship.

Basing your length of journey on the speed of Columbus is also good, although he did run with full 3-masted ships that probably were able to grasp more air and, possibly, more speed because of that. I would estimate that with the wind, your sailors are looking at 8-10 days, but against the wind, they are possibly doubling that estimate because of the tacking necessary to cross-wind.

This is total estimation, however, because to my recollection, an exact distance of Numenor from Middle-Earth was never stated, only that the West could be barely seen by those living on the Star Island.

- Erulisse (one L)

[elfscribe]

Apr 22, 2010 4:13:00 GMT -6 erulisse said:

If you are postulating later Numenor, sail boats would be a wonderful alternative and the caravel would be a good choice - after all it worked very well for the Portuegese. But if you are placing things in early Numenor, I suspect that the Viking longship might be more accurate since that is probably closer to what the swan ships of the Teleri were like. In either case, you're looking at a total number of crew to be 10-25 depending on the type of ship.

Basing your length of journey on the speed of Columbus is also good, although he did run with full 3-masted ships that probably were able to grasp more air and, possibly, more speed because of that. I would estimate that with the wind, your sailors are looking at 8-10 days, but against the wind, they are possibly doubling that estimate because of the tacking necessary to cross-wind.

This is total estimation, however, because to my recollection, an exact distance of Numenor from Middle-Earth was never stated, only that the West could be barely seen by those living on the Star Island.

- Erulisse (one L)

Hi Erulisse - good to be reminded that sailing against the wind would take a lot longer. I recently had a discussion with my beta, Malinorne about the distance to Numenor from Umbar. It's true Tolkien doesn't say. I've been using the distances in the Atlas of Middle Earth just because. LOL. Mal believes that based on descriptions of Numenorean voyages taking years that Tolkien must have envisioned Numenor further from Middle-earth than is shown in the Atlas, perhaps the same distance as North America from England. *shrugs* Quien sabe?

[russandol]

Apr 22, 2010 22:37:34 GMT -6 elfscribe said:

I've been using the distances in the Atlas of Middle Earth just because. LOL. Mal believes that based on descriptions of Numenorean voyages taking years that Tolkien must have envisioned Numenor further from Middle-earth than is shown in the Atlas, perhaps the same distance as North America from England. *shrugs* Quien sabe?

When I read Aldarion and Erendis the idea I had (rightly or wrongly) was that the trips were long because the Númenóreans chose to make them so! They went exploring far, charting the coastlines and creating havens and settlements. I imagine it a little like the Spanish and Portuguese soon after they "discovered" America, or like the Dutch and British later on around Australasia and the Pacific. Or like the surveying expedition that took Darwin to the Galapagos - I believe he spent more time on land than travelling. The ships I imagined were also bigger than the Jewel of Muscat.

Regarding times... I was thinking about them recently for my Eönwë story. The Aman-ME crossing could never be as long as the roughlly five weeks it took the Santa Maria to cross the Atlantic, from the Canary Islands to the Bahamas. So I settled for three weeks - I can always claim that the Teleri ships and sailing skills were more advanced than those of the Spanish (!), or that Manwe provided them with favourable wind - that made Eönwë sea-sick! ** grins ** ¿Quién sabe? ;D

[erulisse]

Think about this from the reverse. I.e., when Numenor was pulled beneath the waves, the ships of the Faithful left and rushed to Middle-Earth for safety. Although I'm sure that they had some push from the tsunami, they also had to leave in a hurry. I speculate that ships were stocked somewhat, but perhaps not fully loaded for a long journey because such loading would have caused suspicion to fall upon them (with probable deadly after effects). I estimate that there would have been barrels of water, salted fish, citric juice, and some other staples that would automatically be kept topped off for ocean voyaging. But suddenly they are fleeing and putting as many people as possible onto the ships - almost overloading them. They are experiencing bad weather and wave action, and still the manage to land all ships safely on the shores of Middle-Earth. Separated, but safely. And nobody starved, had dehydration issues, or lost a palantir overboard (LOL). It makes me think that the voyage was more than likely of relatively short duration - less than one month - even though they more than likely had the aid of Ulmo. Just my thoughts for whatever it's worth :-)

- Erulisse (one L)

[sanna]

Apr 23, 2010 5:01:28 GMT -6 erulisse said:

And nobody starved, had dehydration issues, or lost a palantir overboard (LOL).

Or at least anyone important...

[surgicalsteel]

See, I always figured that one reason that it might've taken the Numenoreans a long time for some of their journeys is that they might not've solved the longitude problem. I'm blanking on the name of the captain, but there was at least one British naval officer who literally wasted a couple of months at sea and lost half his crew to scurvy trying to find Tierra del Fuego, because he knew his latitude but not his longitude and he kept turning back and forth along the same parallel - it took the Scilly naval disaster to get the British government motivated enough to offer a substantial cash prize to whoever could solve the problem.

Having an entire fleet literally crash into the coast of their homeland because it's too foggy to see the coast and they're not certain of their exact position would've gotten people's attention far more than one poor guy who couldn't find Tierra del Fuego.

And Erulisse (one 'l'), why 'citric juice?' Capt. Cook used sauerkraut to ward off scurvy because it was easier to store and transport. I know the British navy's famous for the use of lime juice added to the rum ration, but it's not the only thing they used. If they're using a concentrated lime juice that doesn't contain alcohol as a preservative, you're talking late 1800s as a relative timeframe (Rose's lime juice was patented in the 1860s). Prior to that, if you're talking citrus juices, you either need to be dropping anchor at a lot of ports where fresh fruit's available or you've got to have some method (like mixing with alcohol) to preserve the juice.

[erulisse]

Apr 25, 2010 7:15:46 GMT -6 surgicalsteel said:

And Erulisse (one 'l'), why 'citric juice?' Capt. Cook used sauerkraut to ward off scurvy because it was easier to store and transport. I know the British navy's famous for the use of lime juice added to the rum ration, but it's not the only thing they used. If they're using a concentrated lime juice that doesn't contain alcohol as a preservative, you're talking late 1800s as a relative timeframe (Rose's lime juice was patented in the 1860s). Prior to that, if you're talking citrus juices, you either need to be dropping anchor at a lot of ports where fresh fruit's available or you've got to have some method (like mixing with alcohol) to preserve the juice.

No specific reason, glad you mentioned sauerkraut, I had forgotten that gem. I'm no sailor, Minnesota has lots of lakes but no ocean. I'm a historian who, obviously, needs to click her mind up a notch to match wits with the lounging lizards of this hangout (and am looking forward to doing exactly that!). Thanks for pointing out other options for the poor Numenorians.

- Erulisse (one L)

[surgicalsteel]

Apr 26, 2010 5:01:34 GMT -6 erulisse said:

Apr 25, 2010 7:15:46 GMT -6 surgicalsteel said:

And Erulisse (one 'l'), why 'citric juice?' Capt. Cook used sauerkraut to ward off scurvy because it was easier to store and transport. I know the British navy's famous for the use of lime juice added to the rum ration, but it's not the only thing they used. If they're using a concentrated lime juice that doesn't contain alcohol as a preservative, you're talking late 1800s as a relative timeframe (Rose's lime juice was patented in the 1860s). Prior to that, if you're talking citrus juices, you either need to be dropping anchor at a lot of ports where fresh fruit's available or you've got to have some method (like mixing with alcohol) to preserve the juice.

No specific reason, glad you mentioned sauerkraut, I had forgotten that gem. I'm no sailor, Minnesota has lots of lakes but no ocean. I'm a historian who, obviously, needs to click her mind up a notch to match wits with the lounging lizards of this hangout (and am looking forward to doing exactly that!). Thanks for pointing out other options for the poor Numenorians.

- Erulisse (one L)

I'm not a sailor, either, LOL, just a surgeon with a freakish interest in the history of her profession. Cook stands out for me because the British navy actually gave him a special award for circumnavigating the globe without losing a single sailor to scurvy. Larrey (Napoleon's chief surgeon) was firmly of the opinion that eating horsemeat would ward off scurvy - likely because it was freshly butchered and hadn't lost any of its vitamin C, but he wouldn't have known that, and that wouldn't be an option available to men at sea.