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Post by pandemonium on Apr 4, 2009 11:23:52 GMT -6
I have only ridden horses occasionally (and always with tack) so I hang on eagerly to lenine, Rhapsy and Jael's experiences. I'll echo Darth. It's your vision, but trying to force fit historical evidence of our primary world's ancient history onto an imaginary secondary one can be hazardous to one's health. Every writer's mileage may vary, but my own metrics give a vigorous nod to Tolkien's intercalation of 19th and early 20th century technologies into his created world. He doesn't explicitly name these with terms from our contemporary (and, err, real) world, but dang. The implications sure are there. For example, the engines driven by fires and holding orcs in the siege of Gondolin surely sound like tanks. In The Lost Road and The Akallabeth in The Silmarillion, Sauron aids the Númenóreans in inventing what sound like metal-hulled ships driven by steam-powered engines. Tolkien opined that he wished the internal combustion engine had never been invented; my distant ancestor, James Watt, takes offense at that . These little bits about Sauron are among the reasons I've chosen to depict him as a more humanized technocratic captain of industry. The blasts at Helm's Deep and the siege of Minas Tirith sure seem like they originated with gun powder. One of the Ents is blistered with a liquid substance that smacks of the chemical warfare used in WWI. So my characteristically overinflated opinion is that you can freely use stirrups on Númenórean saddles if Sauron has introduced steam engines. And if any canatic challenges you on the stirrups, I'd point to those very passages in The Silm and the HoMe.
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Post by pandemonium on Apr 4, 2009 11:30:16 GMT -6
;D This, in a nutshell (so to speak), says it all.
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Post by jael on Apr 4, 2009 15:07:32 GMT -6
I can actually see the horse turning this around: "Ew, dude, get those sweaty things offa me!" ;D
I've ridden bareback in the nude (long story) and found it quite comfortable. What hurts is any kind of bare skin against leather.
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Post by elfscribe on Apr 5, 2009 14:18:52 GMT -6
Aw, now you have to share this story, Lady Godiva. Inquiring minds . . . .
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Post by robinka on Apr 6, 2009 6:43:12 GMT -6
My image of the Numenoreans is much more like an older Mediterranean culture like the Greeks who didn't use either saddles or stirrups, but who said we had to be consistent with historical fact? I assume a similar thing about the FA Edain, basing it on what I've read about Slavic tribes that lived here in north-eastern and central Europe (from the early Middle Ages onward): they didn't use saddles & stirrups, only some sort of cloth fastened onto the horse. For travelling purposes, they used wagons (hauled by drudges) or spare horses to load them with belongings. As for fighting, well, they fought mostly on foot, using bows, axes and spears. Cavalry and more novelties in warfare came later, along with conquerors from the west and south -- more technologically advanced cultures. So, I'm guessing that Tolkien envisioned his elvish warriors with both saddles and stirrups. My friend ponited the following to me the other day: 1. Letter #211: "actually bridle was casually and carelessly used for what I suppose should have been called a headstall. Or rather, since bit was added (1221) long ago (Chapter 112 was written very early) I had not considered the natural ways of elves with animals. Glorfindel's horse would have an ornamental headstall, carrying a plume, and with the straps studded with jewels and small bells; but Glor. would certainly not use a bit. I will change bridle and bit to headstall."
which is to some degree contradicted by
2: Fingon's mounted archers: You cannot shoot properly from horseback unless standing in the stirrups (shooting in the moment the horse puts its front hoof down). It's still difficult and takes a lot of practice. I'm no expert in riding horses, but it seems just reasonable to me that they might use saddles & stirrups.
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Post by jael on Apr 6, 2009 10:28:34 GMT -6
'Fastened to the horse' is very important. I recall the canatics telling me to simply throw a blanket over the Elven mounts if I was worried about the cleanliness issue. An unsecured blanket is worse than nothing, since it will slip off, taking the rider with it.
One of the most comfortable saddles I ever owned was a bareback pad of quilted leather (it had English-type stirrup irons), and I'm chagrined that I gave it away now that we have a ride able horse again.
I envision Elven tack as being very minimal -- like a bareback pad.
Or what we Western riders would call a hackamore. In the Western style of equitation, the horse isn't 'on the bit' anyway. It's given a more or less free head and the bridle is only used to give signals -- it turns away from a rein laid against the neck and a pull on the nose will tell it to stop. This is all a well-trained horse really needs.
Of course, some horses have a mind of their own, and being no Elf, I wouldn't care to ride them without some kind of bit.
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Post by ithren on Sept 8, 2009 22:29:08 GMT -6
Got another horsey question for anyone who cares to render an opinion: did the Edain shoe their horses in the First Age, or at all?
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greywing
New Sneech
credit: akaru_hana @ LJ
Posts: 14
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Post by greywing on Sept 9, 2009 17:09:35 GMT -6
Got another horsey question for anyone who cares to render an opinion: did the Edain shoe their horses in the First Age, or at all? This might depend on whether they had a lot of paved roads...
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Post by nierielraina on Sept 9, 2009 17:19:28 GMT -6
Got another horsey question for anyone who cares to render an opinion: did the Edain shoe their horses in the First Age, or at all? This might depend on whether they had a lot of paved roads... Or the terrain they live in. My sister has to shoe her horses and they live in a pasture 24/7. The mud is like concrete down there though, and chips away at the hooves. Chips in hooves become cracks if they are not tended and filed. If you want sound horses and live in an area that produces a lot of wear and tear on the hooves, they at the very least would file the hooves, but I would think they might keep them shod, at least in front. IF they have the skill to make swords, they have the skill to make horseshoes.
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greywing
New Sneech
credit: akaru_hana @ LJ
Posts: 14
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Post by greywing on Sept 9, 2009 21:19:12 GMT -6
Also, some horses have naturally very hard hooves...I suppose it might depend if they were a "superior" elf-horse kind of breed etc ;D
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Post by nierielraina on Sept 9, 2009 22:54:20 GMT -6
Also, some horses have naturally very hard hooves...I suppose it might depend if they were a "superior" elf-horse kind of breed etc ;D Yea, Arabians have hooves like that. They probably are down in Harad though.
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