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Post by elfscribe on Mar 29, 2009 0:10:32 GMT -6
I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is canon mention of saddles and stirrups among the Edain in the Second Age?
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Post by Darth Fingon on Mar 29, 2009 22:21:01 GMT -6
I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is canon mention of saddles and stirrups among the Edain in the Second Age? Nothing that I can think of, but that might be mainly because there's very little mentioned about the Second Age. So you can pretty safely make your own decisions here about who had what. From what I understand of saddle history in general, saddles have been around for thousands of years, but stirrups are a more recent invention. Depending on what technology level you want to have in your story, stirrups may or may not exist. The best way to go would probably be to equate your story society with some real-world historical examples and see what was available. |
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Post by elfscribe on Mar 30, 2009 10:28:52 GMT -6
I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is canon mention of saddles and stirrups among the Edain in the Second Age? Nothing that I can think of, but that might be mainly because there's very little mentioned about the Second Age. So you can pretty safely make your own decisions here about who had what. From what I understand of saddle history in general, saddles have been around for thousands of years, but stirrups are a more recent invention. Depending on what technology level you want to have in your story, stirrups may or may not exist. The best way to go would probably be to equate your story society with some real-world historical examples and see what was available. Thanks Darth! To follow up also, Mal has a searchable copy of the Silm and she came up with one reference to a saddle. It is something about Curufin lifting Luthien to his saddle. You're right about stirrups being a relatively recent invention. First developed in China (why are we not surprised), around the 400s AD, they spread into Europe and apparently were in common use by around the 700s A.D. (I had thought they were even later) and they revolutionized warfare in Europe. So, I'm guessing that Tolkien envisioned his elvish warriors with both saddles and stirrups. My image of the Numenoreans is much more like an older Mediterranean culture like the Greeks who didn't use either saddles or stirrups, but who said we had to be consistent with historical fact? |
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Post by aearwen on Mar 30, 2009 14:39:50 GMT -6
but who said we had to be consistent with historical fact? Canatics? *ducking*I guess I've never thought the Eldar used much of anything other than maybe a blanket or pad, except for the business of actually fighting from horseback, when the stirrups would be of practical use. Edain, on the other hand, would probably use saddle and stirrups on a regular basis, especially given the RL history. They would not have the same bond with the animal, and thus be less likely to have a horse work to keep the rider from falling. They'd also probably use reins and maybe even bits - but that's another discussion entirely. |
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Post by jael on Mar 30, 2009 19:26:05 GMT -6
Saddles, bridles and even stirrups are of practical use. Saddles pad both the horse and rider from bony protuberances. Stirrups aid in mounting and they help a rider keep balance and avoid fatigue. What would be the point of having stirrups and not using them unless going out to fight?
I'm given to understand that Tolkien didn't like the use of bits -- he thought them cruel, but here's an incidence of a Noldorin horse and rider using saddle, stirrups and bridle:
"Suddenly into view below came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. ( . . .) the rider had reined in his horse and halted ( . . .)'You shall ride my horse,' said Glorfindel. 'I will shorten the stirrups up to the saddle skirts, and you must sit as tight as you can." Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter XII: Flight to the Ford
This is Third Age, but it shows the Eldar used tack.
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Post by elfscribe on Mar 30, 2009 21:53:12 GMT -6
Right, which is then contradicted by Legolas removing Arod's tack. LOL! Maybe that's only Sindarin elves doing that. Either that or Tolkien just didn't think that one through or maybe Legs was a flower child.
I have also loved that opening description of Glorfindel, btw. It still raises gooseflesh.
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Post by lenine on Mar 30, 2009 22:41:47 GMT -6
The invention of the stirrup is fascinating, I think. Such a simple thing, but what changes it made! If you've ever ridden without stirrups you can understand that it's like having your legs cut off. There have been books written on the invention of the stirrup and its impact on world history.
Saddles don't just serve the purpose of making things more comfortable for humans. They protect a horse's back (if they fit correctly). Think of the differece between a wel-fitting backpack full of books and one that just hangs on your back. I would think that maybe Elves could do without due to the same feature that allowed Legolas to walk on top of snow. But the Edain, if they value their horses, would use tack out of concern for them and to extend their use. Not to mention the ability to attach things like packs and bedrolls.
Blah blah horses blah blather I'd better stop now.
PS - I am greatly enjoying the Numenor fic.
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Post by jael on Mar 31, 2009 10:15:15 GMT -6
As a horse owner and rider, I get incredibly testy about the whole tack issue. Probably because I had seen canatics taking writers to task for describing any sort of tack on elf-horses. Because they have such perfect balance and perfect accord with their mounts, etc.
In two of my earliest stories I set out to write scenes without the saddle and ended up with a "what's wrong with this picture?" moment. Legolas attempts to stow his gear over a horse's bare back and . . . it slips to the ground. Thranduil and a retinue of Elven nobles set out on a state visit riding bareback and . . . he's going to be picking horse hairs off his butt when he gets there. It just didn't seem very 'Thranduil' to me.
Not to mention -- I don't care how light elves are. If they have testicles a bare backbone is going to hurt.
Pure and simple, Tolkien forgot what he'd written between Fellowship and Two Towers when he used Legolas to illustrate the way elves have with 'good beasts'. Any rider worth his salt can indeed ride bareback and with only one rein. I've done it myself. That doesn't mean you'd want to do it all the time.
I've come up with a good explanation for Legolas removing that saddle in Rohan. A high pommel can be a hazard for a rider used to very light tack. Or else he just wanted to make the Dwarf hang on tighter.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Mar 31, 2009 10:46:05 GMT -6
Or else he just wanted to make the Dwarf hang on tighter. I like this interpretation. The horses are brought over, and Legolas immediately begins thinking, now what can I do to screw with Gimli... Oh! I know! |
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Post by elfscribe on Mar 31, 2009 12:16:03 GMT -6
Or else he just wanted to make the Dwarf hang on tighter. I like this interpretation. The horses are brought over, and Legolas immediately begins thinking, now what can I do to screw with Gimli... Oh! I know!ROTF!! ;D |
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Post by elfscribe on Mar 31, 2009 12:30:34 GMT -6
Right, I've run into that specific problem myself when contemplating how to attach a piece of equipment. I also used to own a horse and have ridden bareback as well as with a saddle. I used to jump courses bareback and sometimes even dropping the reins with arms held out wide, as practice for balance. In warfare though or on a trek, it's a matter of having something to tie things to, to ease your butt (if it's a good saddle) and to brace oneself against when hacking with a sword or using a lance. As I recall, movie-version Legolas uses a saddle. ;D You know I wonder about the Greeks riding bareback and not wearing any underoos. The image of the coating of horsehair and sweat in tender places is not an appetizing one. Not to mention the pounding those areas would receive and not in a good way. Brrrr. (They also used pads, but no saddles.) Tough guys, those Greeks. Both explanations have merit. But I prefer the idea that Legs just wanted to mess with Gimli.  |
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Rhapsody
Pretty Good Sneech 
Bard of Silver Dreams
Posts: 161
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Post by Rhapsody on Apr 3, 2009 8:43:38 GMT -6
Right, I've run into that specific problem myself when contemplating how to attach a piece of equipment. I also used to own a horse and have ridden bareback as well as with a saddle. I used to jump courses bareback and sometimes even dropping the reins with arms held out wide, as practice for balance. In warfare though or on a trek, it's a matter of having something to tie things to, to ease your butt (if it's a good saddle) and to brace oneself against when hacking with a sword or using a lance. As I recall, movie-version Legolas uses a saddle. Hah, me too (as for the past reference to riding horses and such). I always try to approach this quite practically: if you ride long distances, a saddle with stirrups makes you last longer (at least that is my experience, even when you have a great balance and have mad riding skills). Riding bareback or with a saddle but when your feet/legs are not using the stirups is great for a short while. Especially when you want to stretch your legs & relax a bit. I always tend to think that the good ol' professor had a romantic view on this, because even horses have stubborn days. Then its great to have some tack to hang onto before you end up in the bushes while your horse seemingly laughs at you |
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