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Post by Darth Fingon on Aug 24, 2009 13:46:25 GMT -6
I need some ideas for upcoming Linguistic Foolery articles for the SWG newsletter. Anyone have any Elvish-language-based questions in need of an answer?
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Post by Clodia on Aug 24, 2009 17:20:32 GMT -6
This may be a silly question, but I've always been slightly puzzled about how the Elvish languages could develop into distinct languages (unless they're better thought of as dialects?) given the lack of the usual generational turnover. I can understand the development of a certain amount of region/lifestyle-specific vocabulary, but how could the language itself change so much that Sindarin and Quenya became distinct forms (well, 'far estranged), given that a reasonable proportion of those who spoke it in its earliest form neither died nor passed across the sea?
Or am I being obtuse here? I see Appendix F went with 'the tongue had changed with the changefulness of mortal lands', which made me snerk a bit. But what is the relationship between Sindarin and Quenya? - something like that between the Romance languages, or more like the difference between English dialects? I don't know anything about this and I have too many real languages to learn to look into it myself, but it sort of interests me. Is there a stupidly obvious answer somewhere in the appendices?
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Post by Independence1776 on Aug 24, 2009 19:50:38 GMT -6
Would Quenya (and Sindarin?) in Aman have changed sufficiently in the time between the end of the First Age and the end of the Third so that Elrond and co. would have had difficulty communicating there?
I know this is probably pure speculation that can't have an answer, but it's something I've been wondering about.
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raksha
Pretty Good Sneech 
Posts: 134
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Post by raksha on Aug 25, 2009 14:53:56 GMT -6
Considering how different the spoken French is in Canada from that of France, and they diverged two or three hundred years ago, I would definitely think that difficulty in communicating would be a possibility for Elrond on his arrival in Aman. However, I don't think it would take him too long to learn the accent and different turns of speech; and the Elves of Valinor would be used to the difficulty and might expect it. I would think that Celebrian would be helpful in teaching Elrond...
I speak a fairly good French for a non-native speaker (or at least I used to, it's been years since I needed to); but when I've visited Canada, the French speakers there could understand me far easier than I could understand them.
I would think that the degree of change in the languages of Aman/language of the Exiles would vary from region to region in the Blessed Realm. Those Quendi who live in close proximity with Returned elves might speak a Quenya more comprehensible to the latter, especially if there is a lot of cultural/economic interaction.
Great topic!
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aiwen
New Sneech
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Post by aiwen on Oct 4, 2009 13:33:25 GMT -6
How exactly are the silvan elves and their language(s) related to those of the Avari? I've read several contradictory things in LOTR and Unfinished Tales and was wondering if anyone has a (best) answer.
The extent and speed of language shifts in Quenya by the exiled Noldor seems awfully fast to me given elvish immortality, especially as given in the Books of Lost Tales. But then, I'm not a linguist and have little skill in that area.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Oct 5, 2009 11:40:09 GMT -6
How exactly are the silvan elves and their language(s) related to those of the Avari? I've read several contradictory things in LOTR and Unfinished Tales and was wondering if anyone has a (best) answer. All Elvish languages are based in Primitive Quendian: the language of the Elves at Cuiviénen. However, even at this point, various groups were actively changing their dialects. They made conscious decisions to use certain words/sounds instead of others, so a large part of the change you see over the years was artificially created by the Elves in their quest to make a more 'pleasing' language. The first noted divergence is between Common Eldarin and Avarin. CE became the language of those who left Cuiviénen (developing over all the years they spent on the move), and Avarin developed outside of Eldarin influence from this point onward. However, when and where contact was reestablished, other languages may have influenced the Avarin dialects. Nobody knows for sure. The languages of the Silvan Elves (Nandor) were the next to diverge from CE when the Nandor refused to cross the Misty Mountains. So Nandorin dialects retain some of the changes in CE but then develop in their own ways separate from Sindarin, Quenya, and Telerin. So the difference in evolution between Avarin and Nandorin looks like this: Primitive Quendian -> Avarin Primitive Quendian -> Common Eldarin -> Nandorin Next, Common Eldarin split into Quenya and Common Telerin as the Teleri fell further behind and the Noldor and Vanyar moved on ahead. Quenya then split in to Noldorin and Vanyarin, and Common Telerin became Amanian Telerin (those who left Beleriand) and Old Sindarin (those who stayed). Variations of Sindarin then evolved out of Old Sindarin. Primitive Quendian -> Common Eldarin -> Quenya -> Noldorin Primitive Quendian -> Common Eldarin -> Quenya -> Vanyarin Primitive Quendian -> Common Eldarin -> Common Telerin -> Telerin Primitive Quendian -> Common Eldarin -> Common Telerin -> Old Sindarin -> Sindarin dialects Many of these changes were deliberate. The Elves actually held discussions about the best ways to change their languages. To give an example, at one point in the evolution of Quenya the Vanyar made a decision to keep things as they were, while the Noldor went ahead and kept making improvements. So you'll see things like D, Z, CH and TH in Vanyarin, which were removed from Noldorin Quenya because they sounded 'harsh'. Presumably all of these changes happened before the birth of Fëanor, with TH being the last to disappear from NQ. Feanor famously retained usage of TH in honour of his mother, though no other Noldor (except the Vanyarin-influenced House of Arafinwe) spoke this way. |
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