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Post by russandol on Jun 3, 2010 17:33:53 GMT -6
Doesn't that just cause the hair on the nape of your neck to tingle? Wow, the parallels are truly spookily amazing. ;D ;D ;D The thing that makes my hair tingle with amazement is that there is actually bible fanfiction - www.fanfiction.net/book/Bible/Example summary: "A modern day reimagining of the teenage years of Jesus. Through the eyes of John the Baptist, we will watch the young Messiah as he attends high school, learns about who he is, and begins his ministry." Morthoron, you should post your 10 commandments there...
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Morthoron
New Sneech
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Posts: 54
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Post by Morthoron on Jun 3, 2010 18:51:50 GMT -6
Wow, the parallels are truly spookily amazing. ;D ;D ;D The thing that makes my hair tingle with amazement is that there is actually bible fanfiction - www.fanfiction.net/book/Bible/Morthoron, you should post your 10 commandments there... Hmmmm...I think I prefer to get my god fan-fic straight from the bible. They could really write fantasy back then. ;D I am afraid if I posted there, my icon would be burned as heretical by the moderators...or would that be the Torquemaderators?
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Post by virtuella on Jun 3, 2010 22:49:47 GMT -6
Indeed, and that is pretty much the only thing they have in common.
There is this strange assumption that, because Tolkien was a Christian, his books would have to be Christian books. But I'm asking you: if Tolkien baked a cheesecake, was it a Christian cheesecake?
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raksha
Pretty Good Sneech
Posts: 134
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Post by raksha on Jun 3, 2010 23:39:46 GMT -6
But...but...looking at all the stunning coincidences and remarkable parallels, one can only assume that Frodo is the Messiah: 1) Frodo and Jesus are both 2 syllables, Hobbiton and Nazareth are both three syllables, and Pontius Pilate and Sauron Gorthaur have four syllables. 2) Jesus was baptized in a river and Frodo's parents drowned in a river! 3) Jesus rose from the dead and Samwise married Rose! 4) Yahweh and Eru are both foreign sounding names! 5) Both Jesus and Frodo have fan-fiction written about them. It's just that Jesus has his posted in the bible. 6) Jesus was nailed, Frodo was skewered! 7) Jesus was not accepted by the Pharisees of the Jewish establishment, while Frodo was not accepted by the Literati of the Post-modern establishment! 8) Jesus' righthand man, Peter, became Pope, while Frodo's righthand man, Sam, had rope. 9) Neither Jesus nor Frodo got married or had a real job. 10) Both Jesus and Frodo had feet. Doesn't that just cause the hair on the nape of your neck to tingle? BEVERAGE WARNING, Please!!!!
#10 just about did it for the keyboard.
Raksha
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Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Jun 4, 2010 0:29:43 GMT -6
Actually Tolkien claimed that the Lord of the Rings was a very Christian book. I have two comments on that:
1. I like it anyway (personally I've never been able to stand Frodo, and Sam is worse).
2. Tolkien had a huge contradiction splitting his legendarium down the middle: he had Catholic morals (run!) and a pre-Christian literary model. This clash between the message and the medium is one of the sources of the schizophrenia in his work evident to anyone who is not Jesus-obsessed.
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Morthoron
New Sneech
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Posts: 54
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Post by Morthoron on Jun 4, 2010 8:09:57 GMT -6
Actually Tolkien claimed that the Lord of the Rings was a very Christian book. I have two comments on that: 1. I like it anyway (personally I've never been able to stand Frodo, and Sam is worse). 2. Tolkien had a huge contradiction splitting his legendarium down the middle: he had Catholic morals (run!) and a pre-Christian literary model. This clash between the message and the medium is one of the sources of the schizophrenia in his work evident to anyone who is not Jesus-obsessed. Actually, I believe Tolkien said it was a very 'catholic' book, not 'christian'. This is germane because there is more than one definition for the word 'catholic', not merely in context to the specific religion. Later he referred to 'Christian symbology' contextually, but I don't recall him saying it was a 'Christian' book. As far as schizophrenic text, that is longstanding in epic literature, as Beowulf has Christian symbology grafted on a more pagan saga, and the Arthurian cycle is a Christian romance on a pagan foundation; in fact, the character Gawaine is the epitome of a pagan deity, with his strength waxing in the morning and waning in the afternoon.
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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 9:36:40 GMT -6
Tolkien can claim what he likes. As a theologian, I say such claims are mistaken. The concept of God, the concept of salvation, the morality, the concept of the ultimate Good, the vision for the future, the concept of the afterlife in Tolkien's work are all very clearly not Christian.
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 9:46:46 GMT -6
The concept of God, the concept of salvation, the morality, the concept of the ultimate Good, the vision for the future, the concept of the afterlife in Tolkien's work are all very clearly not Christian. They are not exclusively Christian. They are in all likelihood universal from the time our Homo Sapiens ancestors began to think about themselves. Then we made up pretty stories to support those concepts and things began to diverge. The usual "my story is better than yours" and "you must like my story best or else". Probably you have already guessed that I am not a theologian...
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Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Jun 4, 2010 9:47:26 GMT -6
Tolkien can claim what he likes. As a theologian, I say such claims are mistaken. The concept of God, the concept of salvation, the morality, the concept of the ultimate Good, the vision for the future, the concept of the afterlife in Tolkien's work are all very clearly not Christian. Yes, and it evidently caused him a lot of anguish. His earlier tales have so much more brio! Then he tried to make them holier as the years passed. Thus Galadriel goes from rather interesting ambitious lady who wants to play with the big dogs, to stand-in for the Virgin Mary (of whom, may I say, a worse model for women never existed).
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klose
Pretty Good Sneech
Posts: 89
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Post by klose on Jun 4, 2010 9:59:14 GMT -6
But...but...looking at all the stunning coincidences and remarkable parallels, one can only assume that Frodo is the Messiah: 1) Frodo and Jesus are both 2 syllables, Hobbiton and Nazareth are both three syllables, and Pontius Pilate and Sauron Gorthaur have four syllables. 2) Jesus was baptized in a river and Frodo's parents drowned in a river! 3) Jesus rose from the dead and Samwise married Rose! 4) Yahweh and Eru are both foreign sounding names! 5) Both Jesus and Frodo have fan-fiction written about them. It's just that Jesus has his posted in the bible. 6) Jesus was nailed, Frodo was skewered! 7) Jesus was not accepted by the Pharisees of the Jewish establishment, while Frodo was not accepted by the Literati of the Post-modern establishment! 8) Jesus' righthand man, Peter, became Pope, while Frodo's righthand man, Sam, had rope. 9) Neither Jesus nor Frodo got married or had a real job. 10) Both Jesus and Frodo had feet. Doesn't that just cause the hair on the nape of your neck to tingle? I love this post. ;D
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Post by kymahalei on Jun 4, 2010 10:42:20 GMT -6
The usual "my story is better than yours" and "you must like my story best or else". Probably you have already guessed that I am not a theologian... Seems to me that a number of world religions have spread based on these two foundational truths. Are you sure your not a theologian, russandol? I agree that Tolkien's writing is more catholic than Catholic. It's much more a reflection of humanity than Christian doctrine. As far as Frodo as the Messiah - readers always want to identify with literature that they enjoy. Give me a minute and I'll find Hindu and Bhuddist parallels as well. By the way, Morthoron, you could probably get big bucks for that list on e-bay. It has the aura of deep wisdom. Can I touch your robe?
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 11:02:16 GMT -6
Are you sure your not a theologian, russandol? Certain. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact I share town of birth with Torquemada??
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