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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -6
No, they're not Christian at all. The Christian God is an extremly involved one, Eru is an absent creator God. In Christianity, you are supposed to forgive your enemies, in Tolkien's work you're supposed to slay them. Jesus encouraged people to identify Evil primarily in themselves, i.e. their tendencies to be greedy and selfish, while in Tolkien's world Evil is personified in the demonic Other. Tolkien proposes an afterlife of the soul, Christian doctrine proposes resurrection. The Christian vision of the ultimate Good is an egalitarian Utopia in which all share all things freely (in Christian terms, the Kingdom of God), Tolkien's world establishes an eternal two-class system with Elves in Valinor and mortals in Middle-earth, and the best Men can hope for is to be ruled over by their betters (i.e. Numenoreans) in a perpetuated feudal system.
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 13:13:19 GMT -6
No, they're not Christian at all. In my view you could find examples to support both the Christian and the non-Christian camps - I can think of several "pro-Christian" arguments too. Tolkien deliberately wanted to remove the obvious Christian elements from his work, in contrast to C.S Lewis, but some themes are impossible to erradicate, and the underlying morality behind the story is Christian, in my opinion. Saying that, I have never sat to read Tolkien trying to analyse the religious content of his work. At the risk of sounding superficial, I have read his works with the only intent of seeking enjoyment and to find myself immersed in a fantastic world.
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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 13:24:38 GMT -6
So what are the Christian elements, and the Christian morality?
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 14:19:09 GMT -6
Frodo's continuous struggle against temptation and his sacrifice, for one. His chance at redemption, etc. Which, if I remember, was the reason this conversation started, on a less serious note.
Really, I'd rather not go there. I have no interest in defending either camp.
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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 14:25:26 GMT -6
Okay, if you wish, we can leave it there, but I'd say that the first is not a central concept of Christian theology, and the latter two are realised in a completely different way.
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 15:15:14 GMT -6
Okay, if you wish, we can leave it there, but I'd say that the first two is not a central concept of Christian theology, and the latter two are realised in a completely different way. Thank you, I'll take your word for it. Tolkien's letters explain his intentions well and he provides several far better examples of elements and symbolism derived from his faith. I'd rather keep enjoying Tolkien's work without attaching to it any religious significance, pagan or catholic.
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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 15:44:07 GMT -6
That's how I like to look at it, too. He tried to create a fictional world that is as complex and complete as posibble, and he did a great job. There are odd omissions, notably that there doesn't seem to be much of an economy, but hey, one man can't do it all himself. He'd have to be like God...
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Post by russandol on Jun 4, 2010 15:50:43 GMT -6
Well, if he had completed everything we would not be here filling the gaps and questioning his inconsistencies, would we?
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Post by virtuella on Jun 4, 2010 16:04:24 GMT -6
Exactly. That was really very considerate of him, don't you think?
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Post by erulisse on Jun 5, 2010 5:30:50 GMT -6
If Tolkien had written something overtly Christian, I doubt that I would enjoy it as much as I do since that path does not interest me. There are Christian-type elements, but I see those more in the Valar and Maiar than in the individual characters of the Fellowship, etc.
What he did do was create a physical world, rich in detail and peopled with a variety of entities, that pulls all of us into it using different baits - areas of interest. And in spite of, and because of, those different areas of interest, we all can find places in his playground in which we can happily play with others. That was his great gift, and that gift has been passed on to all of us to extend to others.
- Erulisse (one L)
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Morthoron
New Sneech
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Posts: 54
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Post by Morthoron on Jun 5, 2010 6:16:44 GMT -6
What he did do was create a physical world, rich in detail and peopled with a variety of entities, that pulls all of us into it using different baits... Are...are you saying...that Tolkien...was a master-baiter?
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Post by Gandalfs apprentice on Jun 5, 2010 8:34:21 GMT -6
What he did do was create a physical world, rich in detail and peopled with a variety of entities, that pulls all of us into it using different baits... Are...are you saying...that Tolkien...was a master-baiter? You are bad. I have to say that I wish I could "not see" the Catholic morality in Tolkien's world. Aside from his impossibly hung-up ideas about sex, Middle-earth has "fallen world" stamped all over it. All physical being is corrupted by Morgoth, etc. etc. As a hard-core materialist with a perspective of historical optimism, I HATE that stuff. Every time Galadriel sighs about "the long defeat," I want to tear her up into little pieces. Therefore I am happy to admit that there is plenty of blasphemy in my fanfic.
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