Kenaz
New Sneech 
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
|
Post by Kenaz on Feb 24, 2009 11:07:20 GMT -6
[Moved from the wrong sub-board]
So, I've found a couple of references that mention that "Rivendell was besieged by forces aligned with Angmar" sometime in the Third Age (in the 1300's?) after the foundation of Angmar but prior to the Battle of Fornost.
Is this referencing the Witch-King's invasion of the Northern Kingdoms in 1409 (in which Elrond and Cirdan bring troops from Imladris, Lindon, and Lothlorien), or was there a distinct attack on Imladris?
I'd really like to be able to use this as a plot point, but I was wondering if anyone knew where, in canon, this information appeared... are there any other specific details, or is it just one of those footnotes in the annals upon which I can build with reckless abandon, tossing canon straight out the window?
|
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Feb 24, 2009 18:10:19 GMT -6
So, sorry! You hit one of the segments of canon that I know the least about--there are others here who know it, however (Pandemonium? Jael? GandalfsApprentice?).
|
|
|
|
Post by pandemonium on Feb 25, 2009 5:48:30 GMT -6
[Moved from the wrong sub-board] So, I've found a couple of references that mention that "Rivendell was besieged by forces aligned with Angmar" sometime in the Third Age (in the 1300's?) after the foundation of Angmar but prior to the Battle of Fornost. Is this referencing the Witch-King's invasion of the Northern Kingdoms in 1409 (in which Elrond and Cirdan bring troops from Imladris, Lindon, and Lothlorien), or was there a distinct attack on Imladris? I'd really like to be able to use this as a plot point, but I was wondering if anyone knew where, in canon, this information appeared... are there any other specific details, or is it just one of those footnotes in the annals upon which I can build with reckless abandon, tossing canon straight out the window? To which references do you refer? Did they give a citation to the source work? Although Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth and the "Thain's Book/Tuckborough" refer to "Rivendell besieged" anywhere around 1300 to 1375 TA, neither of these references provides a clear citation for this information. The chronology in Appendix B of The Return of the King says nothing of a siege on Rivendell during those years in the Third Age, that is, a distinct attack on Rivendell as opposed to other named incursions in the North. Rooting around in the HoMe (Peoples of Middle-earth, Tale of Years and the Heirs of Elendil), revealed nothing. That doesn't mean the information is lurking on a scrap of napkin that JRRT scribbled on after a long night at the Eagle and Child. I'd say use it as a plot point regardless of what *cough* canon *cough* says. If you can write to convince and entertain the reader, that's what counts, right? |
|
|
|
Post by Moreth on Feb 25, 2009 7:14:54 GMT -6
LoTR Appendix A: (iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur "Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged." So that's somewhere between 1356(ish) and 1409... I'd say you can build with reckless abandon  |
|
|
|
Post by pandemonium on Feb 25, 2009 7:43:50 GMT -6
LoTR Appendix A: (iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur "Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged." So that's somewhere between 1356(ish) and 1409... I'd say you can build with reckless abandon Excellent! Actually, that's a helpful tidbit for me as well. How does one besiege a valley? As opposed to a walled city for example? |
|
|
|
Post by Moreth on Feb 25, 2009 9:29:36 GMT -6
How does one besiege a valley? As opposed to a walled city for example? A good question! Stand on the edge and throw rocks in? Actually, that's not such a very bad idea... seal the road (which wouldn't be difficult at Imladris) and bring on the artillery siege engines. (Pretty much what happened at Dien Bien Phu, I think.) I don't get the impression the Bruinen is very navigable there - maybe one or two small boats could get in and out, but not many. Neither would a retreat over Cirth Forn en Andrath be possible if the mountains are crawling with orcs. Hmmm - a hidden valley might have seemed like a good idea, but it rather quickly starts to look like a death trap. O.o Ofc, having lost one army there in the second age, your boy doesn't want to get too cocky ;P |
|
Kenaz
New Sneech
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
|
Post by Kenaz on Feb 25, 2009 9:58:25 GMT -6
LoTR Appendix A: (iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur "Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged." So that's somewhere between 1356(ish) and 1409... I'd say you can build with reckless abandon YAY! Perfect! A *hint* of canon, but with the boundless freedom to fabricate things that suit my needs granted by those delightful little weasle-words "It is said..."!!! Good point about besieging the valley, though. Guess I'll bring in the siege engines, even though I was planning on making those a Dol Guldur surprise during the siege on Lorien in 3018/19-- but I've got a couple millennia to dream up other evil weapons, yes? Thanks ladies!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Moreth on Feb 25, 2009 11:07:38 GMT -6
Good point about besieging the valley, though. Guess I'll bring in the siege engines, even though I was planning on making those a Dol Guldur surprise during the siege on Lorien in 3018/19-- but I've got a couple millennia to dream up other evil weapons, yes? Or you could line up squadrons of orc-archers and rain fire-arrows down onto any visible building... Or you could simply starve them out (which might take a long time, depending on how self-sufficient Imladris is in your mind). Hehehe! I can't believe I'm thinking up battle plans to assault Rivendell. With the cheerful amorality of an arms-dealer, Morgeth Inc. will supply anyone with weapons... I shouldn't be allowed out, I shouldn't ;P |
|
|
|
Post by elfscribe on Feb 25, 2009 11:21:01 GMT -6
Or you could line up squadrons of orc-archers and rain fire-arrows down onto any visible building... Or you could simply starve them out (which might take a long time, depending on how self-sufficient Imladris is in your mind). Hehehe! I can't believe I'm thinking up battle plans to assault Rivendell. With the cheerful amorality of an arms-dealer, Morgeth Inc. will supply anyone with weapons... I shouldn't be allowed out, I shouldn't ;P You are a riot. ;D |
|
Kenaz
New Sneech
Making Haldir Miserable Since 2005
Posts: 88
|
Post by Kenaz on Feb 25, 2009 11:52:59 GMT -6
Good point about besieging the valley, though. Guess I'll bring in the siege engines, even though I was planning on making those a Dol Guldur surprise during the siege on Lorien in 3018/19-- but I've got a couple millennia to dream up other evil weapons, yes? Or you could line up squadrons of orc-archers and rain fire-arrows down onto any visible building... Or you could simply starve them out (which might take a long time, depending on how self-sufficient Imladris is in your mind). Hehehe! I can't believe I'm thinking up battle plans to assault Rivendell. With the cheerful amorality of an arms-dealer, Morgeth Inc. will supply anyone with weapons... I shouldn't be allowed out, I shouldn't ;P If only you would use your powers for the forces of Good! Oh, wait: you're helping me write my story, ergo, GOOD!  Now I'm thinking nefariously myself... boiling oil or some sort of incendiary devices? Poisoning the river? It's a valid point, really-- wouldn't Vilya have given the valley some protection, as Nenya gave Lothlorien? Not total protection, obviously, but still... Must...think... like Sauron! |
|
|
|
Post by pandemonium on Feb 25, 2009 12:19:36 GMT -6
Good point about besieging the valley, though. Guess I'll bring in the siege engines, even though I was planning on making those a Dol Guldur surprise during the siege on Lorien in 3018/19-- but I've got a couple millennia to dream up other evil weapons, yes? Or you could line up squadrons of orc-archers and rain fire-arrows down onto any visible building... Or you could simply starve them out (which might take a long time, depending on how self-sufficient Imladris is in your mind). Hehehe! I can't believe I'm thinking up battle plans to assault Rivendell. With the cheerful amorality of an arms-dealer, Morgeth Inc. will supply anyone with weapons... I shouldn't be allowed out, I shouldn't ;P My boy likes the idea behind Dien Bien Phu (keep in mind that my boy at this point of the Third Age is probably trying to figure out how he can keep his corporeal form under control, cf. Fell Beast fic ) and orc archers raining down fiery arrows. Large siege engines dragged across the moors might be a bit tricky, but then you've got your trolls for slave labor. Hmmm, poisoning the river? Too difficult to do with a fast-moving current. I'm My boy is all for fire and incendiary stuff. For example... Remember the Ents' battle at Isengard? From The Two Towers:
One of them, Beechbone I think he was called, a very tall handsome Ent, got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight. Sounds like chemical warfare to me, similar to mustard gas. If Saruman had it, I would imagine (note - this is fannish opinion) the invention of this technology had occurred to Sauron long before the War of the Ring. ;D Some nassssssty substance like that could be rained down upon Imladris, too. Tolkien has under-the-radar 19th/early 20th century technology appearing all the way back to the Fall of Gondolin, so why not? That could be quite grisly. Heh. Yeah, nothing like a hidden valley under siege. I've always viewed Vilya as more of a preservation device (prevents decay, etc.) than a defense mechanism, but your mileage may vary. |
|
|
|
Post by DrummerWench on Feb 25, 2009 13:50:33 GMT -6
Heh. Yeah, nothing like a hidden valley under siege. I've always viewed Vilya as more of a preservation device (prevents decay, etc.) than a defense mechanism, but your mileage may vary. Have always (well, for a while, at least...) thought that hidden was part of Vilya's job. That is, if Vilya's master didn't want the valley found, you wouldn't find it, just wander endlessly about through trackless canyons, etc. Of course, one could postulate that a sufficiently strong-willed person, who knew what he/she is facing, could work through the confusion, and lead a band of some additional number of baddies along. Then the last-in-line might get distracted for a moment, detached from the band & hopelessly lost... The point being, under this scenario, you couldn't bring in all your troops, and could only send as many bands as you have trusty, strong-willed leaders. Then there's raising the waters of the river to flood away the bad guys, though presumably you could only do that once or twice a season, depending on the upstream water resources... STOP NOW, DW. STOP NOW |
|
