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Post by levade on Feb 23, 2011 16:09:26 GMT -6
I know the Eldar were tall. I think Maedhros was mentioned as being tall and well-formed? *g* Turgon was supposed to be tall too, but how tall is tall? 8 feet, 9 feet? Were Elves giants compared to Men?
An artist friend is asking, wanting to make sure her scale of heights is correct. Is there anywhere in HoMe or other books this was specifically mentioned or is it fanon? I can't find it but I'm probably looking in the wrong books.
Thanks!
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Post by elleth on Feb 23, 2011 17:17:29 GMT -6
The problem is, the epithet the Tall crops up in several places throughout the books, which makes it nicely blurry. The only definite numbers I can think of are for Elendil being 2.5 rangar (or 7'11, according to Tolkien Gateway) and Galadriel being 6'4. She's described as the same height as Celeborn in LotR (I think, can't seem to track down the reference), and taller than most other Noldorin women in the Shibboleth of Feanor. The same height seems to be an average for the Númenoreans in Exile, so by inference they were taller than that while still on their island, and considering that Elves are said to be taller than Men, well.
Thingol is given no specific height that I know of, but he is described as tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar in chaper 5 of the Silmarillion, with Turgon coming second, being the tallest of the Children of Eru save Thingol alone again according to the Unfinished Tales. Contradicting that comes Argon, being the tallest of the brothers again going by the Shibboleth of Feanor, but then he was erased from the published Silmarillion (and would have died fairly early if included, so perhaps the comparison is moot?)
But... to answer the question, yes, Maedhros was definitely one of the people with that lovely epithet, so it is probably safe to assume he was taller than most? And the well-shapededness is right there in the name. ;D
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Post by levade on Feb 23, 2011 21:41:33 GMT -6
Hi Elleth Unfinished Tales gives one answer about measurements and heights and I think that's where the Galadriel ref is from. "Unfinished Tales": Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. "League" is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Numenorean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lari, which was very nearly three of our miles. Lar meant "pause," because except in forced marches a brief halt was usually made after this distance had been covered [see note 9 above]. The Numenorean ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their greater stature. Therefore five thousand rangar would be almost exactly the equivalent of 5280 yards, our "league:" 5277 yards, two feet and four inches, supposing the equivalence to be exact. this cannot be determined, being based on the lengths given in histories of various things and distances that can be compared with those of our time. Account has to be taken both of the great stature of the Numenoreans (since hands, feet, fingers and paces are likely to be the origin of names of units of length), and also of the variations from these averages or norms in the process of fixing and organising a measurement system both for daily use and for exact calculations. Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dunedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well-known unit ranga. (The ranga is often said to have been the length of the stride, from rear heel to front toe, of a rull-grown man marching swiftly but at ease; a full stride "might be well nigh a ranga and a half." It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than a man-high. Elendil is said to have be "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga;" but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the Downfall [and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall]. The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, "the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell," was said to be man-high, but it is noted "according to the measure of the Dunedain and the men of old," indicated a height of about six feet four inches. - Thanks for the help!
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Post by elleth on Feb 23, 2011 21:58:28 GMT -6
That is the place exactly, and it's so refreshing to read it in English for once! Thank you for copying that here. And I finally found the quote from the Mirror of Galadriel as well: Which still says jack-all about Maedhros himself, but if Galadriel makes it to 193cm, Maedhros would probably appear like a scryscaper to hobbity little me...
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Post by oshun on Feb 24, 2011 12:16:06 GMT -6
I think that stuff Tolkien wrote about outlandish heights of Numenoreans and the Eldar is about the silliest stuff he ever wrote. It doesn't make me think of anyone grand or glorious, but freakish. I always think of silly photos of the very tall man sitting on a tiny burro when the dicussion comes up.
The concepts of sun years, years of the trees, centuries of starlight and all that just make my eyes glaze over. He could have spared us all that and I would be thrilled. Hey! I'm already buying the quasi-immortal elves part. That's a stretch for me already.
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Post by levade on Feb 24, 2011 12:28:43 GMT -6
That is exactly what Ramie and I decided after looking all of this over. 9 feet tall. You would stand taller than your horse's ears! Unless you had monstrously huge horses but then again you have problems there. And were these just Amanian Elves or all of them? Eh. I get that it's a mythology, but Elves weren't gods, they were just there before everyone else.
I can see tall, six feet, even seven for the tallest. I've been in Phoenix when the Suns (basketball team) were in the airport and felt like a weensy shrimp next to them.
I don't go into the time thing. It boggles my brain to try and understand tree years, pre-tree years. Bad enough to sit there and think about all the plants and trees existing without sunlight.
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Post by russandol on Feb 24, 2011 12:50:43 GMT -6
It doesn't make me think of anyone grand or glorious, but freakish. I always think of silly photos of the very tall man sitting on a tiny burro when the dicussion comes up. You almost killed me with that one, oshun. I'm wiping tears from my eyes, I'm laughing so hard... Well formed and beautiful proportions. Freakish, right. ;D
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Post by erulisse on Feb 24, 2011 14:38:29 GMT -6
So true. I don't have a problem with the timespans, although some of them, seem a bit short and others extend far too long, but I do have a problem with basic scientific concepts being thrown out of the mix as it is convenient for the story, and then introduced again when the next bump comes in the road. As for height, I can easily see 6-7 feet tall, but much more than that for other than the Valar and maybe the Maiar, stretches my imagination to the limit.
(Sorry, perhaps "stretches" is the wrong word to use here - LOL.)
- Erulisse (one L)
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Post by elleth on Feb 24, 2011 15:12:00 GMT -6
It doesn't make me think of anyone grand or glorious, but freakish. I always think of silly photos of the very tall man sitting on a tiny burro when the dicussion comes up. Like the first image here? It's been going around my head since the discussion started.
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Post by levade on Feb 24, 2011 16:40:59 GMT -6
(Sorry, perhaps "stretches" is the wrong word to use here - LOL.) No, it was actually perfect, LOL!
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Post by levade on Feb 24, 2011 16:41:55 GMT -6
It doesn't make me think of anyone grand or glorious, but freakish. I always think of silly photos of the very tall man sitting on a tiny burro when the dicussion comes up. Like the first image here? It's been going around my head since the discussion started. LOL! I have never seen that, thank you for making Oshun's comment clear now.
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Post by oshun on Feb 24, 2011 21:46:00 GMT -6
It doesn't make me think of anyone grand or glorious, but freakish. I always think of silly photos of the very tall man sitting on a tiny burro when the dicussion comes up. Like the first image here? It's been going around my head since the discussion started. I never saw that cartoon. But it is really kind of perfect.
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