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Post by dracoena on Feb 25, 2011 4:08:30 GMT -6
Tolkien was trying to imitate legend, where all heights and sizes are greatly exaggerated in order to create a sense of wonder in the public. The problem is that when he wrote his stuff, that kind of literature was dead for a reason. Right now, you can´t make a person believe that anything goes just because it happens in the "remote past", or that this past was a time where everything was wonderful and different from what it is now. This absolutely kills the premise for legend, and turns it into fantasy subgenre, where this kind of discussion inevitably turns up.
This said, I´ve always found this height thing funny. I´m having a lot of fun writing Elendil. After all this time, I´m surprised that nobody has picked on that juicy issue in fic! (Wait. Or have they?)
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Post by oshun on Feb 25, 2011 6:08:11 GMT -6
It kills the identification for me in a principle character. I can identify with fantasy elements. Hero meets dragon or giant and has to interact, or hero has mind-reading skills, or that he has magical powers (e.g., Merlin or Harry Potter). I can even buy that he has all kinds of crazy super powers. But if a writer wants to find that hero attractive on any kind of human level, then he cannot be green with scales and/or eight feet tall. It just doesn't work for me.
I'll never be able to forget the unpleasant experience of reading a novel in a writing group with a half-elf woman protagonist getting it on with a dragon. It was gross not sexy. I kind of react the same way to eight- or nine-foot Numenoreans or Eldar. So I pretend he never wrote that stuff when I use those characters and attempt to convince a reader they are attractive.
Beowulf can be appealing because his human characteristics overshadow the superpowers. One hears "she wants a knight in shining armour to ride into their life," but not "what I really need is an eight-foot man."
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Post by elleth on Feb 28, 2011 9:27:14 GMT -6
It kills the identification for me in a principle character. I can identify with fantasy elements. Hero meets dragon or giant and has to interact, or hero has mind-reading skills, or that he has magical powers (e.g., Merlin or Harry Potter). I can even buy that he has all kinds of crazy super powers. But if a writer wants to find that hero attractive on any kind of human level, then he cannot be green with scales and/or eight feet tall. It just doesn't work for me. I think your comment makes a lot of sense. On a personal level I don't mind the heights that much (although they do seem to verge on the comical in places) because like Dracoena said, they appear to be more of a literary effect and function to denote the characters as larger than life in all senses of the word, rather than reflect a reality within the secondary world... and that reality seems to be the floor for many fanfic writers to base their story on, so I can definitely see how it might be problematic for gigantic Elves'n'Men to exist. Oddly, I find overly gigantic, monstrous antagonists even more offputting. A Morgoth like this does not make Fingolfin look brave or the battle epic, but stupid.
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Post by randy on Feb 28, 2011 14:19:35 GMT -6
I found it unwittingly hilarious when he came and set the bed-hanging on fire. Other than that, I agree. It was disturbing.
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Post by elfscribe on Feb 28, 2011 15:55:01 GMT -6
LOLOLOL!! ;D I found it unwittingly hilarious when he came and set the bed-hanging on fire. Other than that, I agree. It was disturbing.
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Post by oshun on Feb 28, 2011 16:43:22 GMT -6
It kills the identification for me in a principle character. I can identify with fantasy elements. Hero meets dragon or giant and has to interact, or hero has mind-reading skills, or that he has magical powers (e.g., Merlin or Harry Potter). I can even buy that he has all kinds of crazy super powers. But if a writer wants to find that hero attractive on any kind of human level, then he cannot be green with scales and/or eight feet tall. It just doesn't work for me. I think your comment makes a lot of sense. On a personal level I don't mind the heights that much (although they do seem to verge on the comical in places) because like Dracoena said, they appear to be more of a literary effect and function to denote the characters as larger than life in all senses of the word, rather than reflect a reality within the secondary world... and that reality seems to be the floor for many fanfic writers to base their story on, so I can definitely see how it might be problematic for gigantic Elves'n'Men to exist. Oddly, I find overly gigantic, monstrous antagonists even more offputting. A Morgoth like this does not make Fingolfin look brave or the battle epic, but stupid. I so agree on the line between brave and stupid. I have always found images like that disturbing. They just can't be right even in a fantasy vision either. How could Fingolfin have inflicted crippling permanent injuries on Melkor with those kinds of size discrepancies or Glorfindel and Ecthelion have killed balrogs, even if they died in doing so?
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Post by oshun on Feb 28, 2011 16:46:36 GMT -6
I found it unwittingly hilarious when he came and set the bed-hanging on fire. Other than that, I agree. It was disturbing. I always wanted to count the instances of the usage of dragon's spunk in that story. Ewww! I'm a fragile little creature. I like hearts and flowers.
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Post by elleth on Feb 28, 2011 17:05:04 GMT -6
I always wanted to count the instances of the usage of dragon's spunk in that story. Ewww! I'm a fragile little creature. I like hearts and flowers. Nearly spat tea on my monitor reading your post. Thanks, that was priceless. ;D
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Post by elleth on Feb 28, 2011 17:22:04 GMT -6
I think your comment makes a lot of sense. On a personal level I don't mind the heights that much (although they do seem to verge on the comical in places) because like Dracoena said, they appear to be more of a literary effect and function to denote the characters as larger than life in all senses of the word, rather than reflect a reality within the secondary world... and that reality seems to be the floor for many fanfic writers to base their story on, so I can definitely see how it might be problematic for gigantic Elves'n'Men to exist. Oddly, I find overly gigantic, monstrous antagonists even more offputting. A Morgoth like this does not make Fingolfin look brave or the battle epic, but stupid. I so agree on the line between brave and stupid. I have always found images like that disturbing. They just can't be right even in a fantasy vision either. How could Fingolfin have inflicted crippling permanent injuries on Melkor with those kinds of size discrepancies or Glorfindel and Ecthelion have killed balrogs, even if they died in doing so? Yes, exactly... depending on the version of the story I can more or less buy into it (I think the Fall of Gondolin according to the Lost Tales had Balrogs twice elven height, which is not too outlandish for me - y'know, as un-outlandish as elves and fiery monsters can be), but from a certain point onward even the secondary belief that Tolkien proposed demands a suspension of disbelief. The secondary world may be sound in itself, but if audience expectations/norms/beliefs are what has changed, there is little way around reimagining things as a reader.
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Post by oshun on Feb 28, 2011 17:46:42 GMT -6
Yes, exactly... depending on the version of the story I can more or less buy into it (I think the Fall of Gondolin according to the Lost Tales had Balrogs twice elven height, which is not too outlandish for me - y'know, as un-outlandish as elves and fiery monsters can be), but from a certain point onward even the secondary belief that Tolkien proposed demands a suspension of disbelief. The secondary world may be sound in itself, but if audience expectations/norms/beliefs are what has changed, there is little way around reimagining things as a reader. I could buy up to and including twice normal size. A little smaller could still be scary as hell and work so much better for me.
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Post by elfscribe on Feb 28, 2011 20:35:04 GMT -6
You know I simply am not buying 8 to 10 ft tall elves, no matter what Tolkien said. There are times when canon is simply silly. According to Tolkien all elves were tall and beautiful and wise, just to different degrees. Tall = impressive. I've decided it's a bit of epic hyperbole since Tolkien doesn't give us the sense that they are substantially taller than a lot of the men they consort with. Not, for instance in the same way as the Balrogs are described as towering over them. My tallest elves would be about 6'6" and that's it. Yes, exactly... depending on the version of the story I can more or less buy into it (I think the Fall of Gondolin according to the Lost Tales had Balrogs twice elven height, which is not too outlandish for me - y'know, as un-outlandish as elves and fiery monsters can be), but from a certain point onward even the secondary belief that Tolkien proposed demands a suspension of disbelief. The secondary world may be sound in itself, but if audience expectations/norms/beliefs are what has changed, there is little way around reimagining things as a reader. I could buy up to and including twice normal size. A little smaller could still be scary as hell and work so much better for me.
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Post by oshun on Feb 28, 2011 20:41:44 GMT -6
You know I simply am not buying 8 to 10 ft tall elves, no matter what Tolkien said. There are times when canon is simply silly. According to Tolkien all elves were tall and beautiful and wise, just to different degrees. Tall = impressive. I've decided it's a bit of epic hyperbole since Tolkien doesn't give us the sense that they are substantially taller than a lot of the men they consort with. Not, for instance in the same way as the Balrogs are described as towering over them. My tallest elves would be about 6'6" and that's it. I agree entirely. Much bigger than that and the story becomes silly.
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