Units of measure in fantasy worlds

[elfscribe]

After the interesting discussion we had this morning about whether to use grams or ounces or some invented term in a fic about Numenor, I thought I'd throw this out for more general discussion. This discussion includes units of measure such as weight, length, distance, monetary units, and time.

Most writers creating a secondary world encounter this problem and often they solve it by inventing their own terms. I find that often instead of helping immerse me into the world, I'm thrown out of it by this. For example in Sarah Monette's Melusine series she used the term septad for a unit of time which I never quite figured out, a week? a group of days. It threw me out of the narrative every time because she so wanted to immerse us in her foreign world that it wasn't defined, because the characters knew what it was. That would have been easily solved by a little dictionary at the back.

Anyway, I have several questions and especially in terms of Tolkien's world:

1)Is there a source someone knows where Tolkien canon on this topic exists? What English terms does he use? What about elvish terms? Quenya and Sindarin? (This doesn't help my Adunaic problem, but would be interesting to have.)

2)How have you handled this problem in your own fics? How do you choose what terms to use? And how do you go about inventing new terms if there aren't any canon ones?

3)And a larger issue -- in creating fantasy worlds are authors obligated to create unique units of measurement or should we consider that the book has been translated into English anyway from ajkdjfi! ian or whatever the language would be and therefore it would be okay to pick English units of measurement and go with those?

Have at it.

[erulisse]

I routinely use a six-day for a week or what would be the equivalent of a week in a six-day usage. I also try to stay away from exact measurements, but rely instead on spoonfull, thimblefull, etc. Although cupfull is not an exact measurement unless specifically stated, I try and stay away from it because it can be interpreted as a specific liquid measurement. I haven't come across weight yet, but probably will in the future, so help on weight would be very appreciated.

My problems, so far, have come with the appropriate amount of light shining from The Trees at First Mingling, Second Mingling, and which Tree is superior at which time? The characters can't talk about dawn, dusk, sunrise or sunset, time starts to get a bit amorphous and I find it frustrating at times.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say in this topic. It's a good one to address.

- Erulisse (one L)

[Elf of cave]

Interesting topic elfscribe

Concerning question 1) there is a note associated with the "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in UT:

Numenorean Linear Measurements

Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. "League" is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles. Lár meant "pause," because except in forced marches a brief halt was usually made after this distance had been covered [see note 9 above]. The Númenórean ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their great stature. Therefore five thousand rangar would be almost exactly the equivalent of 5280 yards, our "league:" 5277 yards, two feet and four inches, supposing the equivalence to be exact. This cannot be determined, being based on the lengths given in histories of various things and distances that can be compared with those of our time. Account has to be taken both of the great stature of the Númenóreans (since hands, feet, fingers and paces are likely to be the origin of names of units of length), and also of the variations from these averages or norms in the process of fixing and organising a measurement system both for daily use and for exact calculations. Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dúnedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well-known unit ranga. (The ranga is often said to have been the length of the stride, from rear heel to front toe, of a full-grown man marching swiftly but at ease; a full stride "might be well nigh a ranga and a half.") It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than a man-high. Elendil was said to be "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga;" but he was accounted the tallest of all the Númenóreans who escape the Downfall [and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall]. The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, "the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell," was said to be man-high, but it is noted "according to the measure of the Dúnedain and the men of old," indicating a height of about six feet four inches.

...

UT pp. 369-371

Hope that helps...

About question 3), I generally like when fantasy worlds have their own terms because it gives that world a uniqueness and helps distance it from our own. But, as you said, some readers (people like me) need to have a translation of the invented terms or it might become a source of frustration, while others don't care.

[elfscribe]

Thank you very much Elf of Cave, that was indeed helpful. I knew there had to be something out there. I've read the UT but damn if I can remember details like that.

[russandol]

May 6, 2011 12:43:14 GMT -6 elfscribe said:

1)Is there a source someone knows where Tolkien canon on this topic exists? What English terms does he use? What about elvish terms? Quenya and Sindarin? (This doesn't help my Adunaic problem, but would be interesting to have.)

I believe most of those have already been proposed in previous posts. Plus of course, it's always possible to dream something up from his etymologies in the relevant languages, like you have already done for other words.

2)How have you handled this problem in your own fics? How do you choose what terms to use? And how do you go about inventing new terms if there aren't any canon ones?

I haven't written that many fics, but in the only world I've created I've made up terms for those words that might not translate exactly, as it happens in our real world. The best example I can think of is ahaw in my Kiinluum. It means both king and a sort of embodied divinity to his people. I have used king and god-king as alternatives, but neither explains the whole concept. I try not to overdo these foreign words, and if I do, I'm hoping you Lizards will tell me off!

3)And a larger issue -- in creating fantasy worlds are authors obligated to create unique units of measurement or should we consider that the book has been translated into English anyway from ajkdjfi! ian or whatever the language would be and therefore it would be okay to pick English units of measurement and go with those?

Hey, this was the start of the debate,. My preference (note emphasis!) is for traditional terms, in keeping to Tolkien's own choice, or for invented terms, as per answer to 1).

What we need, Lizards, is a fic with Feanor as the Lavoisier of Arda, defining a comprehensive set of units for mass-length-time-electric current- luminous intensity-temperature-amount of substance and approved prefixes, either decimal or duo-decimal, or both. This unit system will prove to be so useful to the Eldar (except the Vanyar, that stick to unusable Valarin units) that the Noldor will take it to Middle-earth along the tengwar, and it will be translated from original Quenya into other main languages like Sindarin and Adunaic.

[erulisse]

Hmmm, a Feanor story with data for firming up the space/time continuum and measurements thereof? Want to write it with me? LOL.

- Erulisse (one L)
Who knows that the Valarin would never use something like that since they do their measurements directly compared to the hair height of Ingwe only...

[russandol]

May 9, 2011 18:29:08 GMT -6 erulisse said:

Hmmm, a Feanor story with data for firming up the space/time continuum and measurements thereof? Want to write it with me? LOL.

Would love to! I've already hinted in my WIP at how Feanor understood the nature of time and the physical laws better than most. Now he just needs some decent measurement units!

But if anyone must be iin this writing party, it's our Gilamancer. After all, she's already included the temporal echoes of a nuclear explosion in Middle-earth!

[erulisse]

That could make an interesting triad and one I would love to play with. Let's bounce this around a bit...who knows :-)

- Erulisse (one L)

[tanis]

Virtual chocolate and roses if this most esteemed Triad would consider coming up with a relatively easy way to figure travel distances too.

I found a website that had some specifics from place to place by horse, but intially when I found it, it was like greek to me. I might do better with it now, being further immersed in the fandom, but it would be so helpful to have a good idea of how to measure distances.

[jael]

1)Is there a source someone knows where Tolkien canon on this topic exists? What English terms does he use? What about elvish terms? Quenya and Sindarin? (This doesn't help my Adunaic problem, but would be interesting to have.)

2)How have you handled this problem in your own fics? How do you choose what terms to use? And how do you go about inventing new terms if there aren't any canon ones?

The whole weights and measures thing drove me crazy while I was writing Halls of Stone, because most of the time, even if something exists in Quenya, it doesn't in Sindarin. I ended up fudging and referring vaguely to 'measures'.

Virtual chocolate and roses if this most esteemed Triad would consider coming up with a relatively easy way to figure travel distances too.

I found a website that had some specifics from place to place by horse, but intially when I found it, it was like greek to me. I might do better with it now, being further immersed in the fandom, but it would be so helpful to have a good idea of how to measure distances.

Do you mean how to figure travel distances or what to call them? Most of the maps have a distance scale on them in miles. I use a ruler or a piece of string to figure out the rough mileage of a route and then estimate the time needed to travel. And then I use a vague term to describe -- like, "It's a fortnight's journey for a man on horseback."

[elfscribe]

I've run into this problem in various ways in a number of fics, so I'm glad we're discussing it.
As far as distances, I use Karen Wyn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth since it has maps with distance scales, and I've used paper rulers with the scale marked on it to figure number of miles. I have then used various estimates to figure out how many miles one can travel per hour in various modes of travel. But of course that varies depending on how rough the terrain is, how tired or wounded you are, how fast your horse is, whether or not you're an elf, a dwarf, or a ranger, or a pissed-off Nazgûl, or just your average dude. LOL. We had this discussion on this board before in regards to how fast sailing ships travel.

May 10, 2011 9:22:38 GMT -6 jael said:

The whole weights and measures thing drove me crazy while I was writing Halls of Stone, because most of the time, even if something exists in Quenya, it doesn't in Sindarin. I ended up fudging and referring vaguely to 'measures'.


Do you mean how to figure travel distances or what to call them? Most of the maps have a distance scale on them in miles. I use a ruler or a piece of string to figure out the rough mileage of a route and then estimate the time needed to travel. And then I use a vague term to describe -- like, "It's a fortnight's journey for a man on horseback."

[tanis]

Where do I find the thread on fast sailing ships travel??? I gotta read that one, as I currently have a very young Aragorn on a sailing vessel and am having a very difficult time figuring out how long it would take to get from place to place!

Going to have to more closely at the maps I've got, the one on my wall has no milage/scale on it. And I'm going right now to look up the Fonstad Atlas of ME.

Thanks all! This is all a great help!