Damn Taweril

[kymahalei]

Lifted from Aearwen's WIP:

Feb 4, 2010 10:33:16 GMT -6 Darth Fingon said:

An attested word is Tawarwaith (class plural): it means 'Wood-folk', or Elves who live in the forest. I believe Jael has used this one in her stories to refer to the Greenwood Elves. Singular would be Tawarel, plural Teweril, adjective Tawarren.

To invent something, you could use Lasgaledhrim as 'Folk of Lasgalen'. Possibly shortened to 'Galedhrim', though this is pretty close to 'Galadhrim'.

I have a situation that is the opposite of Aearwen's. In my universe the blending of the Iathrim and the wood elves was not as complete or as tidy as the history books indicated. With that in mind, I'm looking for a nice way to say "half Sinda half Silva" as well as a not so nice way to say "half blood."

Am I OK in using Tawarwaith for the Silvan wood elves, or does it do better as a unifying tag? I was looking to contrive a unifying term from taur, or "of the woods." (Could you please help me?) I could easily invert the use of the two terms if that would be better.

Time for a confession.

Um, yeah. Well, I used "damn" in one of my stories and I've felt guilty about it ever since. Not to nit pick, but "damn" wouldn't fit into the eschatology of an elf, since they had no sence of a hell to be damned to. I've looked through the site, and unless I'm missing something I haven't seen the damn issue dealt with yet. Beggin' your pardon, but do you have any damn ideas?

[jael]

I have a situation that is the opposite of Aearwen's. In my universe the blending of the Iathrim and the wood elves was not as complete or as tidy as the history books indicated. With that in mind, I'm looking for a nice way to say "half Sinda half Silva" as well as a not so nice way to say "half blood."

For polite, why not do what Tolkien himself did and use the term 'Wood-elf'? There's nothing wrong with 'half-breed' for a pejorative either.

Um, yeah. Well, I used "damn" in one of my stories and I've felt guilty about it ever since. Not to nit pick, but "damn" wouldn't fit into the eschatology of an elf, since they had no sence of a hell to be damned to. I've looked through the site, and unless I'm missing something I haven't seen the damn issue dealt with yet. Beggin' your pardon, but do you have any damn ideas?

I always use 'cursed' or 'curse it' where I'd use damned or damn it. Now, I have used 'hell' as in 'the hell of battle' and I don't feel guilty about it. That word is not able to be replaced with an alternative in some cases.

[kymahalei]

Thanks for your comments, Jael. Half breed suits me fine, although you know I love to expand my word pallet with Sindarin. Wood elf is a little amorphous for my intentions, although I do make use of it. Actually, the more research I do for my story, the more I think I am writing myself into a huge corner. On the other hand, I do like figuring this stuff out.

Let me get this straight,
Nandor is probably the name that the oldest of the Mirkwood elves would give themselves, as they would not have been tainted by intermarriage.

Laegrim is the Sindar name for wood elves, Laiquendi is the Quenya (which I can't use in this story). For elves born after some elusive date ? ? ? Tawarawaith is more definative because it denotes a mingling of the Nandor blood with Sindar (and Noldor?) people.

So Tawarawaith is probably the best term for everybody, (which was your conclusion as well, Jael.)

Laegrim is what Thranduil would have called the older or "pure blooded" wood elves, although they would have spoken of themselves as Nandor.

Right?

I still don't know where Silvan came from. Is it closer to Tawarawaith or Laegrim?

[alassante]

The only time my elves curse is when I write for OSA's VV(Virtual Village) which is a community writing type setting where the elves have been exposed to modern females. They do say things like 'balrog's balls' 'Morgoth's flaming ass' etc

Jael - couldn't you refer to Angband or Mordor in place of Hell? Although the 'Mordor of battle' doesn't sound right either. I guess the closest thing to hell would be the void or a beyond the Door of Night. But once again, the 'void of battle' or even 'Go beyond the Door of Night!' doesn't sound too swell either. I guess you're right. There's nothing like Hell that works lol

[jael]

Let me get this straight,
Nandor is probably the name that the oldest of the Mirkwood elves would give themselves, as they would not have been tainted by intermarriage.

Laegrim is the Sindar name for wood elves, Laiquendi is the Quenya (which I can't use in this story). For elves born after some elusive date ? ? ? Tawarawaith is more definative because it denotes a mingling of the Nandor blood with Sindar (and Noldor?) people.

Not quite. Green-elves = Nandor (Quenya) = Laegrim (Sindarin). These are the people of Lenwe, who split off from the Great Journey and remained on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. At a later time, some of them did cross over into Eriador and Beleriand, but many stayed in the great forest on either side of the Anduin -- Eryn Galen and Lorinand.

At some point, the Green-elves may have been joined by Avari, and they may or may not have mingled.

I still don't know where Silvan came from. Is it closer to Tawarawaith or Laegrim?

Near as I can tell it's Tolkien's term for the aboriginal elves Oropher and Amdir found living in the woods on either side of the Anduin. It means exactly the same thing as Wood-elves. Sylvan/Silvan, and I don't know why he misspelled it, other than to give self-appointed Tolkien scholars something to flame about.

Laegrim is what Thranduil would have called the older or "pure blooded" wood elves, although they would have spoken of themselves as Nandor.

Again, not quite. Nandor is a Quenya term, which the Green-elves would not have spoken. Laegrim meean 'Green-elves' in Sindarin, which the Wood-elves did, in time, come to speak. Tolkien left us a few words in Nandorin, and they may have had a proper term for themselves, but Darth is the best one to comment on that.

Jael - couldn't you refer to Angband or Mordor in place of Hell? Although the 'Mordor of battle' doesn't sound right either. I guess the closest thing to hell would be the void or a beyond the Door of Night. But once again, the 'void of battle' or even 'Go beyond the Door of Night!' doesn't sound too swell either. I guess you're right. There's nothing like Hell that works lol

You pretty much answered your own question there. If I want someone to wish someone else to a bad place, I say, "Curse you to the shadows." But there are some times where 'hell' is unavoidable. I did once have Thranduil refer to his day as being 'hellish'.

As for cussing in general -- why not? The urge to say bad words to blow off stress is universal. Why do we assume elves are above that?

[crowdaughter]

Completely unrelated to this thread: alassante - ICON LOVE!!!!!!

That said - "damn" as in "damnation" is not so far off a word in a world in which Feanor and his sons damned themselves to eternal darkness if they failed to fulfill their oath, I think. I fail to see a problem with that?

[kymahalei]

Completely unrelated to this thread: alassante - ICON LOVE!!!!!! Me too!

Feb 6, 2010 10:10:07 GMT -6 jael said:

As for cussing in general -- why not? The urge to say bad words to blow off stress is universal. Why do we assume elves are above that?

Precisely. Much as I like "Morgoth's balls," it somehow doesn't cut it as the terse expletive that a seasoned warrior might make. I guess I could squeeze in damn if it was an allusion to "damn you to the dark void." At least that would resolve my hesitations relating to the eschatology.

I've read Darth's 22 Best Elvish words, and lament that they are in Quenyan. Cussing is part of the venacular for some slices of society and I'd like to be able to provide it in Sindarin on occasion.

[aearwen]

Feb 6, 2010 13:24:59 GMT -6 kymahalei said:

Feb 6, 2010 10:10:07 GMT -6 jael said:

As for cussing in general -- why not? The urge to say bad words to blow off stress is universal. Why do we assume elves are above that?

Precisely. Much as I like "Morgoth's balls," it somehow doesn't cut it as the terse expletive that a seasoned warrior might make.

For what it's worth, I've used naur ar nuath or simply nuath ('fire & shadow' or simply 'shadow') as reasonable expletives for an Elven warrior...

[nierielraina]

Feb 6, 2010 13:24:59 GMT -6 kymahalei said:

Precisely. Much as I like "Morgoth's balls," it somehow doesn't cut it as the terse expletive that a seasoned warrior might make. I guess I could squeeze in damn if it was an allusion to "damn you to the dark void." At least that would resolve my hesitations relating to the eschatology.

Personally, I love Jael's Thranduil using Huitho!. ;D I also like the use of Nuath! (Shadows), but personally, I simply use 'Damn!". It's all a translation. If it fits, don't stress over it. And Tolkien did use it somewhere. I've found it before, but can't ATM. Or it may have been the word 'hell'. Seeing 'damn' in a story used by elves doesn't throw me out (or cussing of any kind really) and those who pull the 'That's too modern!!!" or "Elves would NEVER curse!!!" can kiss my...dog.

[alassante]

I guess my elves never curse because I was originally beaten over the head by a beta that they cannot use contractions either. Some habits are hard to break.

And thank you for the icon love This is the only place I felt I could use this one without offending someone lol I have a few of them I found that are a combination of HP, Star Wars, and LOTR. Feel free to snag.




NiRi - you could change this one to PetSmart lol

[alassante]

Feb 6, 2010 11:47:44 GMT -6 crowdaughter said:

That said - "damn" as in "damnation" is not so far off a word in a world in which Feanor and his sons damned themselves to eternal darkness if they failed to fulfill their oath, I think. I fail to see a problem with that?

Good 'damn' point!

[jael]

I guess my elves never curse because I was originally beaten over the head by a beta that they cannot use contractions either. Some habits are hard to break.

*sigh* Betas and their well-meant attempts to spread fanon. Elves never curse because . . .? They'll give you a whole lot of reasons that are basically fannish conclusions. Yes, elves are mature. Yes, elves are noble. No, we never had an instance of Legolas saying, "Oh shit!" in the Trilogy. But that means very little, because we simply never saw what goes on behind the scenes in Elvish life.

Except in The Hobbit, where they get drunk and use contractions in their speech. So there.

I confess that I've never had Thranduil saying, "Dammit!" or, "Oh hell!" anymore than I'd write an archaic character like Julius Caesar saying those lines. But that's very different from, "He has damned himself with his own words." It's a translation after all.