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Post by oshun on Sept 18, 2008 10:59:38 GMT -6
persons with eyerollingly over-the-top martyr complexes -- that is amazing.
Those are beautiful. Very useful words. But crucifixion would seem kind of random. Although Pandemonium could probably find a way to use it if she decides to write more darkfics about Númenor.
One the Helcaraxë:
“Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe. There Elenwë the wife of Turgon was lost, and many others perished also; and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Outer Lands. ”
I had always presumed that the losses of life would be related to the occasional falling through fell through crevices in the shifting ice floes and hypothermia. One must presume that they hunted for food and skins (they wouldn’t have had very warm clothing starting out). If they were impervious to cold, never starved and didn’t need sleep, they would only have died from accidents. What tried my imagination more was how they hauled all the stuff with them that were supposed to have brought with them.
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Post by jael on Sept 18, 2008 12:13:32 GMT -6
I was blandly told that the loss of life came not from hypothermia but from the trauma of being crushed by ice and drowning. Equally blandly, I was told that Legolas didn't really sleep, he lay with his eyes open 'blending vision and deep dream in the manner of the Elves.'This is the same contingent that falls all over themselves trying to explain how Thranduil's golden hair in The Hobbit must have been a trick of the light because only the golden house of Finarfin had golden hair -- the Sindar had silver blond. Because Tolkien never contradicted himself. (I confess to having a bit of fun with point number three.) Uh. So, all those times when Tolkien refers to the 'Princes of the Noldor' should be ignored? I was told that 'prince' is used in the Machiavellian sense -- ruler of a state. I always counter with the child-sized suit of mithril mail -- the armor of 'Elf-princes'. No child is going to be a ruler. You always hear this from the ones who don't like Arwen being called a princess and who dislike anything laudatory about Legolas. Actually not. These are the people who take great pride in having read the HoME while the ignorant fangirls have not. They will take the most obscure essay from the HoME and the Letters and insist that something could never have happened, even when it did happen in The Hobbit, the Trilogy and The Silmarillion.As you know, I'm doing that very thing, and it has forced me to think about what it must be like to live that long. How does it affect the psychology?
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Post by crowdaughter on Sept 18, 2008 12:56:49 GMT -6
I was blandly told that the loss of life came not from hypothermia but from the trauma of being crushed by ice and drowning. How do they explain the loss of Elured and Elurin? As far as I recall, they were exposed in the wood of Doriath and were lost (as in, died) by that exposure. If they were immune to the cold and did not food, why were they lost? So what would be their canonical version of the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn, er, Teleporno? *headdesk* On the other hand, I've read an interesting argticle by Michael Martinez arguing that the Silmarillion should not count as canon, because it got edited too much by Christopher Tolkien; which is at least a train of argument that makes some sense (to me, that is). (Still, if in doubt, I prefer to follow it, most of the time.)
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 18, 2008 14:18:25 GMT -6
Actually not. These are the people who take great pride in having read the HoME while the ignorant fangirls have not. They will take the most obscure essay from the HoME and the Letters and insist that something could never have happened, even when it did happen in The Hobbit, the Trilogy and The Silmarillion.It annoys me that these people cannot differentiate between canon fact and canon interpretation. Fact: Melian is Lúthien's mother. Interpretation: Elves never engage in premarital sex. Facts are easily proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and everyone can agree on them. Interpretations are nothing more than personal opinions, and are not shared by everyone. It does not absolutely state anywhere in any book, in a way that offers solid proof, that Elves never engage in premarital sex. The best anyone can argue is that this is implied. Anything open to sensible argument either for or against can never be a canon fact. When reading/reviewing a story, I don't think it's fair to make any accusations of anticanonicity based on interpretations. The only canon errors I would feel comfortable criticising would be things that can be proven: Gil-galad is older than Elrond, in FA 45 Gondolin did not yet exist and Turgon lived in Vinyamar, bennich is not the proper Sindarin word for you go, and Arwen has no sisters. Anything more than that can only be framed as, 'based on [insert text backup here], my opinion is [explain how plot point A seems off].' To use a famous example: because Elrond is described as kind as summer in The Hobbit, I find it hard to believe that he abuses his spouse. But receiving a review along the lines of 'your story is terrible because Elves would never ever do those things' just puts me in a defiant mood and makes me wonder how I can cram in more controversial topics.
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Post by jael on Sept 18, 2008 17:18:14 GMT -6
The most obscure, latest one possible, no matter how illogical it is and how much it contradicts what we saw in the Trilogy. Even if Tolkien just jotted it down and never had a chance to think it through before kicking the bucket.
Which give us . . . Teleporno, Galadriel's first cousin.
I go with The Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales if they illuminate further what we saw in the earlier books rather than contradict directly. The same with the HoME, which is really no more than working notes.
I'm sure we'd be told those perfect elf-children were eaten by a bear. Or, if they did indeed starve, it would have been because of their Mannish blood.
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 18, 2008 17:57:37 GMT -6
Oh, man, these are choice! But this... persons with eyerollingly over-the-top martyr complexes
...is the best. Traditional Qenya saying: Perilme metto aimahtur perperienta.Approximately: 'we endure to the end but the martyrs suffer exceedingly'. What you say when somebody in the same situation as you is whining about how life is so haaaaaaaard.
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Post by oshun on Sept 18, 2008 20:49:04 GMT -6
What is canon and what is not is one of the most annoying discussions for me. The same people who argue that "Law and Customs Among the Eldar" is the last word on sex and marriage for all Elves and Men as well (while ignoring all of the qualifying language and disclaimers therein) often have not read The Silmarillion, much less the available texts from which Christopher Tolkien assembled it. Despite that they are perfectly confident to argue that their interpretation of that single essay is gospel, canon, and unassailable above everything else Tolkien wrote and anyone who writes anything at variance with their conception of it is disrespectful, worthy of contempt and writing a blatant AU (another term I really dislike).
Canon is something that I use as a basis and an inspiration for my stories. I hate ignorant errors of canon in my work and, if they are pointed out to me, rush to correct them. I agree with the difference between fact and interpretation. I do not pretend to have crawled inside of JRRT's mind and know his intent on all questions. But, there are occasionally cases where I can pretty well guess his intent and blithely ignore anyway it without losing any sleep whatsoever. I like the idea, for example, of using Fingon as the father of Gil-galad. It works for my storytelling purposes in a lot of different ways and Orodreth is dull as dirt to me and not an appropriate father for the Gil-galad I intend to write in the future.
I doubt that Aredhel has to be written as always having worn a white and silver dress--especially since she spent so much time tearing around on horse back with the sons of Feanor. I don't think that Maedhros hanging from the cliffs of Thangorodrim for years and years would come across as plausible in my stories, nor would Fingon diddling around for years trying to decide if he had the energy and motivation to try to find him either. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that such extravagant exaggerations can be easily discarded as a form of hyperbolic heroic storytelling. I find discussions of how Morgoth might have fed Maedhros while he hung by one arm all those years to be irritatingly ludicrous and have no patience with that sort of thing at all.
Oh, I am sorry for ranting and raving.
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Post by jael on Sept 18, 2008 21:01:27 GMT -6
I'm sure you'll recall the fertiliser hitting the windmill when you were told that Fingon/Maedhros was impossible because they were first cousins.
See Galadriel/Teleporno, above.
Some of these 'experts' haven't read the source material. They've read someone else's interpretation of the source material.
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Post by oshun on Sept 18, 2008 21:08:50 GMT -6
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 19, 2008 5:13:35 GMT -6
No time for a meaningful reply* so I'll leave this, nabbed from Aranel Took: *I'll just say that "canon," esp. in the context of the famously contradictory Tolkien who was the master of mythopoeia, is rapidly approaching "meme" at the top of my list of Forbidden Words.
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Post by oshun on Sept 19, 2008 6:38:59 GMT -6
That's cute.
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Post by crowdaughter on Sept 19, 2008 14:42:51 GMT -6
ROTFLMAO!!! Great cartoon - I like!!!! ;D
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