Elven Perfection: what?

[Darth Fingon]

Moving the discussion over here.

Re: Elven physical perfection, childbirth, etc.

If anyone has references to debunk fanons about Elven minds, bodies and culture, post them in this thread. Also open for discussion of popular fanons.

[pandemonium]

References? You want references?

Nerdanel (not beautiful) and Saglant (not lithe) are excellent examples of "canonical" (you know, I think "canon" sets my teeth on edge almost as much as "meme" since it is often abused, misused and overused) less-than-perfect elves. The Silmarillion is rife with imperfect Firstborn.

With regard to childbirth, anything is up for grabs, I suppose. The only explicit text I can find is from Unfinished Tales in "Aldarion and Erendis" and here pertaining to slightly elevated but nonetheless “fallen” mortals and not the vaunted Firstborn*:

“And though childbirth had less of ills and peril, Númenor was not an earthly paradise and the weariness of labour or of all making was not taken away.”

But I keep coming back to Tolkien's letters in which he states more than once that the Firstborn are the same race as Men, or Men as we should like to be. As pertains to the humanity of the elves, he wrote in Letter 153 to Peter Hastings (Letters of JRRT Tolkien, etc. etc.):

"I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological -- which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical...Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race..."

JRRT goes on to write that his secondary world is "an incompletely imagined one" and that one would have to enter it to study its biology.

Based on the italicized text, claiming that the pain of childbirth is connected to religion and faith, i.e., equating the natural pains of oxytocin-induced labor contractions with the Fall of Man in fundamentalist Christian theology, is underestimating a scientifically informed Roman Catholic author, i.e., JRRT (he wasn't exactly a young earth creationist) who was quite concerned about scientific consistency in his secondary world even if he had “incompletely imagined” it. Even when he “waved his wizard’s wand,” he put considered thought behind it.

If a fan has any kind of a clue as to how mammalian physiology works, then s/he knows that oxytocin is a key hormone in reproduction. It’s released during orgasm for both sexes; it has been called "the cuddle hormone" since its nice aftereffects promote bonding.** It stimulates the let-down reflex (milk ejection) and it induces labor. All those processes require enervation and result in sensation of varying kinds. How is it that a human with a complex central nervous system interconnected with hormonal signals will not feel labor?

I can buy a hand-waving argument that perhaps a stronger connection between “mind” and body in H. sapiens eldarensis might allow the laboring mother to relax and not work against labor contractions (visualization and deep breathing sure helped me get through unmedicated labor and delivery), but no pain, no cramping? Right. And elves don’t have hemoglobin-based blood, striated muscles, smooth muscles or estrogens and androgens. There are "magical" and mysterious qualities about Tolkien's elves I accept and happily at that, willing to enter his world with a green sun, but the inability to feel the sensations of contracting uterine muscle (which has plenty of oxytocin receptors) while at the same time being able to experience the pleasurable sensations of orgasm (I mean, those elven-guys had to ejaculate, ergo, oxytocin and I would hope that elven-women were not anorgasmic) just doesn't cut it.

I’ll stop ranting for now since it’s getting late (for me), and I’ll qualify the above by saying it’s neither canon nor fanon. It is logical, however, and gives a respectful nod to JRRT's concerns about the scientific.***

*Again with The Silmarillion and The Letters of JRRT -- reading those would indicate the elves, or at least a fair number of them, are also "fallen."

**I have this theory about vasopressin and elven "bonding..." oh, never mind.

***Sometimes I think I could give Henry Gee a run for his money (which probably isn't a lot). Yes, I am that vain.

[jael]

With regard to childbirth, anything is up for grabs, I suppose. The only explicit text I can find is from Unfinished Tales in "Aldarion and Erendis" and here pertaining to slightly elevated but nonetheless “fallen” mortals and not the vaunted Firstborn*:

This reminds me of an old controversy (now) about Franco Zeffirelli portraying the Virgin Mary with labor pains in his TV movie about the life of Jesus. Conceived 'imaculate' (without Original Sin) she would not be subject to the punishment of Eve, they argued. I think some peole apply that thinking to Tolkien's elves.

I would hope that elven-women were not anorgasmic

Having read the L&C, I wouldn't put it past him. I'm just not going to write it that way.

If anyone has references to debunk fanons about Elven minds, bodies and culture, post them in this thread. Also open for discussion of popular fanons.

I've been quite seriously told that elves can't freeze or starve to death (then why do they bother wearing clothing and hunting?) and that they don't sleep or dream.

**I have this theory about vasopressin and elven "bonding..." oh, never mind.

I, for one, would like to hear it.

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 17, 2008 11:44:39 GMT -6 jael said:

I've been quite seriously told that elves can't freeze or starve to death (then why do they bother wearing clothing and hunting?)

It says specifically in (I believe?) Unfinished Tales that Elves can freeze to death. I'll find the reference when I get home. As far as I can recall, it's part of a conversation between Voronwë and Tuor on their journey from the coast to Gondolin. I think they may also touch on the subject of starvation. However, I think the most obvious counterargument to the Elves-cannot-starve BS is the existence of lembas. If Elves could not starve, they would have no need to create a food designed to be eaten while on the road. And they did make it for themselves: it is mentioned as existing in Doriath before Men entered the picture. I believe Melian taught them how to make it? I'll find a reference for that, too.

[jael]

I believe a lot of this is improper extrapolation coupled with ignorance of Tolkien's complete writings.

'Legolas is less troubled by the cold than the rest of the Fellowship on Caradhras' does not translate into elves never feeling cold and being unable to freeze to death.

'Maedhros hangs on the cliffs of Thangorodrim for an unspecified period of time' does not mean they don't need to eat.

Another edict from a 'canon expert' that has caused me trouble in the past is that Elves did not practice primogeniture nor did they use the words prince and princess for the offspring of rulers.

Er, Thranduil suceeded his father without the need for an election. Sindarin has words for 'prince'. (How about 'princess'?)

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 17, 2008 12:37:58 GMT -6 jael said:

I Another edict from a 'canon expert' that has caused me trouble in the past is that Elves did not practice primogeniture nor did they use the words prince and princess for the offspring of rulers.

Er, Thranduil suceeded his father without the need for an election. Sindarin has words for 'prince'. (How about 'princess'?)

Uh. So, all those times when Tolkien refers to the 'Princes of the Noldor' should be ignored? And yes, the kingship was absolutely passed down from father to son.

When Finwe died, kingship went to his eldest son, Feanor. When Feanor died, it passed to Maedhros, not Fingolfin. This is the most telling example of father to son inheritance. If the kingship weren't arranged this way, Fingolfin would become King directly after Feanor's death. But instead the crown went to Maedhros, who voluntarily gave it up to Fingolfin. Upon Fingolfin's death, it went to his eldest son, Fingon.

Why Turgon next? Well, two reasons. First, even if we take Gil-galad to be the son of Fingon, Gil-galad was only twenty something when Fingon died and not old enough to rule. So kingship could have passed to his uncle as regent. If Gil-galad is not the son of Fingon, then Fingon has no heir and the crown naturally is passed on to his brother.

After Turgon, it becomes more complicated. Turgon's younger brother is dead. His sister is dead. His sister's son is dead. His daughter married a non-Elf, and their son, who at this point is too young to rule anyhow, is not strictly immortal (as far as anyone knows for certain). His Feanorian cousins are dispossessed of their inheritance, and his Finarfinian male cousins are all dead. His living Elven relatives are:
Galadriel
Gil-galad (son of Fingon or Orodreth, now in his 60s and an adult)

Nobody knows if such thing as a ruling Elven Queen exists at this point in time. In later ages, it is noted that Tol Eressea is ruled by Queen Meril, but whether or not a woman could take the crown in the First Age is unknown*. If yes, and assuming that Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, it should have passed to Galadriel. She might have refused it (though this would be out of character for her), or left for the east with Celeborn, making her impossible to locate after Turgon's death. If she was not in consideration for Queenship, the crown would pass to Gil-galad regardless of whose son he is, because he is Turgon's closest living Elven male relative.

People usually use the case of Fingon to Turgon to Gil-galad when they insist that Elven kingship did not pass from father to son. But if you look at the facts, you can see that there is nothing to prove this succession goes against any rules of primogeniture even if we consider Gil-galad to be the son of Fingon. He was simply not old enough to become King when Fingon died.



*All we really know about Meril's age is that she is older than Gilfanon, who was born in Valinor sometime before the First Age and who left for M-e with the exiled Noldor. So she is old enough to have been Queen of Tol Eressea in the Years of the Trees. Also, she is Vanyarin, so her position may have no impact on Noldorin politics anyhow.

[Darth Fingon]

Also, the Sindarin word for princess is aranel.

[pandemonium]

This reminds me of an old controversy (now) about Franco Zeffirelli portraying the Virgin Mary with labor pains in his TV movie about the life of Jesus. Conceived 'imaculate' (without Original Sin) she would not be subject to the punishment of Eve, they argued. I think some peole apply that thinking to Tolkien's elves.

Based on what has filtered to my ears and eyes, that sounds correct. Given that premise, I can see why I would be about as welcome in such discussions as Sauron would be at a hobbit picnic.

Having read the L&C, I wouldn't put it past him. I'm just not going to write it that way.

I dunno. The fact that he came up with words for "a single act of sex" and female and male genitalia (and I'm patiently awaiting Darth's spreadsheet which sounds promising) makes me think he probably did let elven-women enjoy sex as long as they were in it for procreative purposes. His letter (number 43) to his son, Michael, about marriage and the sexes offers a curious view of women (one thing really set me off) but does recognize us as sexual beings. Don't get me started on his opinion that the boogie woogie and "feminists in pants" were the harbingers of civilization's downfall. One hears the "man of his times" refrain as excusing these attitudes, but my maternal grandfather, about ten years JRRT's senior and a well-educated, articulate man (an attorney with his degree from what became the University of Chicago law school) was a firm believer in suffrage and women's rights. Oh, and the internal combustion engine. Anyway, The Letters of JRRT are really something. The canon orthodox dismiss them, but I think they are incredibly revealing.

I've been quite seriously told that elves can't freeze or starve to death (then why do they bother wearing clothing and hunting?) and that they don't sleep or dream.

Darth's already cited great examples. So no one suffered fatal hypothermia during the crossing of the Helcaraxë? Henry Gee (author of The Science of Middle-earth and an editor for Nature) nicely addressed elven-sleep, and cited examples from The Silmarillion. He quite reasonably noted that the example of Legolas' "wakefulness" and "walking in dreams" in The LotR was something elves might be able to do under extenuating circumstances, but like all humans, they need sleep.

Elven memory seems to be pretty remarkable based on what's in the books. Current thinking (heh) and evidence in neurocognition indicate that long term memory is consolidated during sleep. I would imagine elves have beaucoup long term memory. So again, even without "canon," the logic behind "elves don't sleep" is as laughable as "elves have pink blood."

Tolkien made a neat comment in that same letter to Hastings about advances of gerontology might provide plausible explanations for indefinite longevity/immortality. This remark, his essays on the sun and the moon (his laudable rejection of the flat earth cosmogony) and his characters' remarks in The Notion Club Papers indicate that he didn't mind underlying -- and often unspoken -- science mixed with magic. The fanonish elven perfection business seems to fly in the face of this.

**I have this theory about vasopressin and elven "bonding..." oh, never mind.

I, for one, would like to hear it.

I'll qualify this by saying this is decidedly Pan!verse material/interpretation.

Check out this abstract from Nature: A role for central vasopressin in pair bonding in monogamous prairie voles and from the Washington Post, 'Bonding' Gene Could Help Men Stay Married. Of course, pinpointing any one gene for the complexity that is human behavior is hazardous, but it's intriguing. So maybe saying those vows to Eru triggers a peculiar upregulation of vasopressin? However, it's likely not a "perfect" system (because elves are not perfect) , i.e., once the beloved mate is gone, then biologically speaking, things may get "reset." You addressed this nicely in "All Lies and Jest" (a heart-wrenching tale) and it's obviously a source of conflict for Sámaril.

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 17, 2008 18:04:44 GMT -6 pandemonium said:

I dunno. The fact that he came up with words for "a single act of sex" and female and male genitalia (and I'm patiently awaiting Darth's spreadsheet which sounds promising)

He came up with Quenya words for the following:
genitalia, both male and female
breasts
buttocks
naked (multiple words)
bridal bed
the sex act (versus:)
the sex act used to make a baby
sexual desire
semen
piss
shit
sticky goo
illness
sneeze
cough
crime
robbery by stealth (which is outlined as different from:)
robbery by violence
arson
rape
murder
crucifixion
torture
cruelty
abuse
slaves
freemen
legal action
inflict penalty
cowardice
ugliness
female orcs
overweight
persons with eyerollingly over-the-top martyr complexes (seriously, I shit you not)
saints
missionaries
nuns
monks
monasteries
temples of worship

I would like to know what the Pure Elf Canatics think of that.

Darth's already cited great examples. So no one suffered fatal hypothermia during the crossing of the Helcaraxë?

Here is what it says in UT, pp 50-51 in Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin (bold emphasis mine):

Then Tuor said to Voronwe: 'Fell is this frost, and death draws near to me, if not to you.' For they were now in evil case: it was long since they had found any food in the wild, and the waybread was dwindling; and they were cold and weary. 'Ill it is to be trapped between the Doom of the Valar and the Malice of the Enemy,' said Voronwe. 'Have I escaped the mouths of the sea but to lie under the snow?'

...

'No other choice have we,' said Voronwe, 'unless it be to lay us down here and seek the snow-sleep.'

Also of possible interest in this story:
It takes Tuor and Voronwë 38 days to journey from Vinyamar to the gates of Gondolin (in the middle of winter with little food), giving something to go by for First Age travel times on foot.
Gondolindren policy states that tresspassers may be killed on site. Lovely Elvish hospitality and kindness there; apparently they did not reserve capital punishment for extreme cases.

Legolas' "wakefulness" and "walking in dreams" in The LotR was something elves might be able to do under extenuating circumstances, but like all humans, they need sleep.

I agree with this, and this is something I've used in stories: that Elves can go without proper sleep, but they cannot keep it up indefinitely and it is not their natural inclination to do so.

[pandemonium]

He came up with Quenya words for the following:

Oh, man, these are choice! But this...

persons with eyerollingly over-the-top martyr complexes


...is the best.

I would like to know what the Pure Elf Canatics think of that.

Well, only The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are canon, doncha know...

Here is what it says in UT, pp 50-51 in Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin(bold emphasis mine):

Then Tuor said to Voronwe: 'Fell is this frost, and death draws near to me, if not to you.' For they were now in evil case: it was long since they had found any food in the wild, and the waybread was dwindling; and they were cold and weary. 'Ill it is to be trapped between the Doom of the Valar and the Malice of the Enemy,' said Voronwe. 'Have I escaped the mouths of the sea but to lie under the snow?'

...

'No other choice have we,' said Voronwe, 'unless it be to lay us down here and seek the snow-sleep.'

Likewise, those passages informed a lot of my interpretations.

I agree with this, and this is something I've used in stories: that Elves can go without proper sleep, but they cannot keep it up indefinitely and it is not their natural inclination to do so.

Yep. I've incorporated the same idea.

I know that there are a lot of objections to this kind of "humanization" of elves. The question arises then "Are Elves just pretty Men?" A thought exercise of what it would be like -- in real life -- to rub elbows with a fellow human who is 500 - 2000 years old (or older) might be in order. The idea of that is really disconcerting.

[DrummerWench]

Was idly following along, & imperfectly remembered something. Looked & looked through my digital LOTR, couldn't find it. Got up w/ insomnia in the middle of the night & hauled out the ol' battered paperback. Found, rather quickly, the following (C&P'd from the digital one):

The King of the Golden Hall

They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night. When at last they halted and dismounted, even Aragorn was stiff and weary. Gandalf only allowed them a few hours' rest. Legolas and Gimli slept and Aragorn lay flat, stretched upon his back; but Gandalf stood, leaning on his staff, gazing into the darkness, east and west.

If that's not canon, I don't know what is!

I had remembered it as occurring somewhat later, Helm's Deep, say...

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 18, 2008 8:53:08 GMT -6 DrummerWench said:

Was idly following along, & imperfectly remembered something. Looked & looked through my digital LOTR, couldn't find it. Got up w/ insomnia in the middle of the night & hauled out the ol' battered paperback. Found, rather quickly, the following

I think some people might be confusing Gandalf's resilience and sleep patterns with that of Elves.