|
Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 12, 2010 4:20:48 GMT -6
Is it a fanon fact that the sons of Elrond decide to succumb to mortality as two other mortals (Sam & Gimli) were able to pass into Valinor? For it is state sometimes that Arwen gave up her space on the ship to Valinor for Frodo.
Also some cite that choice of both Elros & Arwen as a theme woven around Elrond. That it is a fact that Elrond loses his daughter and brother to mortality. It is an event made very significant that Arwen does not leave Middle-earth with Elrond, and becomes mortal. Neither do his sons...do they probably became mortal as well? - this seems likely.
|
|
|
Post by elfscribe on Sept 12, 2010 7:41:10 GMT -6
Well, it's neither a fanon 'fact' that they became mortal nor a canon one. They stay in Imladris for a time and are joined by Celeborn. Tolkien himself doesn't say whether they chose mortality or took a ship to Valinor. In his letter #153 he says. "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told; they delay their choice, and remain for a while." I've seen plenty of stories that explore all the possibilities, that both go to Valinor, that one decides to become mortal and the other goes or that they both stay. So there is no consensus among fans either. Is it a fanon fact that the sons of Elrond decide to succumb to mortality as two other mortals (Sam & Gimli) were able to pass into Valinor? For it is state sometimes that Arwen gave up her space on the ship to Valinor for Frodo. Also some cite that choice of both Elros & Arwen as a theme woven around Elrond. That it is a fact that Elrond loses his daughter and brother to mortality. It is an event made very significant that Arwen does not leave Middle-earth with Elrond, and becomes mortal. Neither do his sons...do they probably became mortal as well? - this seems likely.
|
|
|
Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 12, 2010 10:11:27 GMT -6
It's great for us in a way that the faith of the sons of elrond are so open to interpretation - as it allows a myriad of storylines to be followed. But his statement of they "remain for a while" seems to contradict this line that he wrote.
"But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle earth. "
And what reason's would Tolkien have for not addressing the faith of Elrond's sons? Is it to finally answer once and for all the line of the Half Elven, and sunder their choice forever from their elven kin. For if Elrohir/Elladan stay in Middle Earth the Peredhil line is one and for all mixed with mortality. I doubt any future children Elrond has in Aman (if he can have any) would have the choice of mortality.
|
|
|
Post by elfscribe on Sept 12, 2010 15:39:00 GMT -6
I doubt any future children Elrond has in Aman (if he can have any) would have the choice of mortality. That's an interesting thought, would any children that Elrond and Celebrian have in Aman, once he returns, also have the same choice? I would think they would. Sounds like a fic idea to me.
|
|
|
Post by erulisse on Sept 13, 2010 4:00:27 GMT -6
I have always felt that the sons of Elrond were allowed to delay their choice until after the death of their sister. But that after that point they had to make their final decisions of Mortal or Elven. But there have been hundreds of different interpretations in fandom about their fates and most of them speak to my soul as being within the bounds of possibility.
The question of whether or not any additional children of Elrond, conceived and born in Valinor is an interesting query and one that I don't recall having seen covered in fanfic, at least none that I have read to this point. Perhaps that is a tale waiting for you to flesh it out.
- Erulisse (one L)
|
|
|
Post by surgicalsteel on Sept 13, 2010 4:12:59 GMT -6
The question of whether or not any additional children of Elrond, conceived and born in Valinor is an interesting query and one that I don't recall having seen covered in fanfic, at least none that I have read to this point. It's been covered a couple of times that I've seen, but I'd love to see it taken on a bit differently. The couple of times that I've seen Elrond and Celebrian having a child conceived and born in Aman it was just a bit on the ooey gooey sappy side for my taste, where all of the characters were just impossibly nice and IIRC Celebrian had the most ridiculously easy labor ever. I'd sort of like to see someone tackle a not-perfect Elrond and a not-saintly Celebrian sort of looking at each other and saying 'WTF are we doing?' or Celebrian having realistic physiologic effects of pregnancy/labor/delivery or even their child having to actually make the choice (perhaps without even really realizing what he/she is choosing between). But that's just me.
|
|
|
Post by aearwen on Sept 13, 2010 9:59:02 GMT -6
The question of whether or not any additional children of Elrond, conceived and born in Valinor is an interesting query and one that I don't recall having seen covered in fanfic, at least none that I have read to this point. It's been covered a couple of times that I've seen, but I'd love to see it taken on a bit differently. The couple of times that I've seen Elrond and Celebrian having a child conceived and born in Aman it was just a bit on the ooey gooey sappy side for my taste, where all of the characters were just impossibly nice and IIRC Celebrian had the most ridiculously easy labor ever. I'd sort of like to see someone tackle a not-perfect Elrond and a not-saintly Celebrian sort of looking at each other and saying 'WTF are we doing?' or Celebrian having realistic physiologic effects of pregnancy/labor/delivery or even their child having to actually make the choice (perhaps without even really realizing what he/she is choosing between). But that's just me. * Smiles and wonders just how far I want to stretch IDD - because this idea really is intriguing.* However, that said, I would imagine that, considering that Elves (according to L&C, I think) had their child-raising relatively soon after their marriage, the only reason Elrond & Celebrían would have more children would be because all of their children in Ennor would have chosen to stay there. Finding an adequate reason for both of these people to go through the trials and tribulations of raising young again would be difficult. After all, both Elrond & Celebrían are old enough and wise enough to not simply act on spur of the moment, when it comes to something that important - especially if, because it would be Elrond's child, that perplexing choice kicks in again...
|
|
|
Post by pandemonium on Sept 13, 2010 12:09:22 GMT -6
* Smiles and wonders just how far I want to stretch IDD - because this idea really is intriguing.* *prod, prod, prod* ;D True, but "Aelfwine" goes on to say in the same treatise that Elves retain the power of generation throughout their lives, should they choose to do so. Yeah! And with jolly ol' Námo as one of those passing judgment...well...*shudders*. In the Pandë!verse, Elrond and Celebrían do not further procreate in Aman because they don't want to burden a child in Aman with such a choice but instead enjoy their prolonged retirement infant-free, which includes Elrond's lark in the desert with Glorfindel and Gilfanon.
|
|
|
Post by russandol on Sept 13, 2010 12:46:32 GMT -6
...but instead enjoy their prolonged retirement infant-free, which includes Elrond's lark in the desert with Glorfindel and Gilfanon. And because of their exalted status they do not need to worry about work or pensions. Sound like pure wisdom to me...
|
|
|
Post by samtyr on Sept 13, 2010 14:40:05 GMT -6
Personally I like the idea of Elrond and Celebrian having a reunion baby, something along the lines of:
"You're what?!"
"You heard me."
"But I thought you were just getting fat."
I am a firm believer in the idea if anything unexpected can happen, it will. XD
|
|
|
Post by oshun on Sept 14, 2010 7:38:08 GMT -6
Personally I like the idea of Elrond and Celebrian having a reunion baby, something along the lines of: "You're what?!" "You heard me." "But I thought you were just getting fat." I am a firm believer in the idea if anything unexpected can happen, it will. XD Well, I could personally wrap my mind around plotting that one. I had my second child eleven years after my first. That was both a shock to my aging body and a challenge to my having become re-accustomed as someone noted above to an "infant-free" lifestyle. That said, it was overall a more positive experience than doing it young, stupid and broke. My problem is motivation for Celebrian and Elrond: missing the first set of kids wouldn't be enough for me (plus, I am one of those who think Elladan and Elrohir eventually went to Valinor). Boredom with Aman? My personal motivation was new younger partner who had never fathered a child and my biological clock racing toward the finish of my childbearing years. I didn't want to wake up one day and find him devastated at the thought of never reproducing. (I also always wanted a daughter--came from a family of mostly girls.)
|
|
|
Post by samtyr on Sept 14, 2010 10:28:31 GMT -6
"...motivation for Celebrian and Elrond: missing the first set of kids wouldn't be enough..." --I can see it happening as a result of their first reunion. I really doubt if they were thinking sedately or rationally if they were reunited after centuries of separation (such as a mere kiss-on-cheek and hugging and hand-holding.) Add a few bottles of Dorwinion (or its equivalent) and you have the classic "a bottle, a backseat and a Saturday night" scenario, which is practically guaranteed to result in a baby.
|
|