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Post by pandemonium on Sept 16, 2010 19:11:48 GMT -6
Relieve the pressure and then something hormonal might change just enough to make it easier. Well, stress causes the body's glucocorticoid levels to increase; when such levels remain high consistently, detrimental effects occur, including decreased libido. The latter is certainly an impediment to conception. Check out this article from the Science Centric site for a more detailed (but accessible to the scientifically literate layman) treatment of how stress affects fertility: Stress puts double whammy on reproductive system, fertilitySo there's a lot that has bee discovered since JRRT's time that can be extrapolated in a reasonable albeit "scientifictitious" sense to the Firstborn.
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 16, 2010 19:20:33 GMT -6
Quote:(I supposed if pressed I could come up with some fantastic pseudo-scientific explanation of how that is possible.) *Raises hand and waves wildly* Oh, I can do that! I can do that! And in fact, have done so. Is it written down somewhere? I'm sure you've done so much better than I could ever do. I know, I know...I really need to write this down as a fully-fleshed out essay (or essays) in the style of Henry Gee's articles. Speculative science pertaining to an imaginary history! I believe we discussed this in a series of comments -- may have been on the Eregion LJ. Elves may have varying degrees of conscious control over the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, thus able to "meditate" (think of how Tibetan monks apparently exert control of autonomic function) their bodies into a fertile state. Steel and I have speculated this might involve increased sperm count and motility in elf-men among other things in both sexes. I need to pull all these snippets and thoughts together for a quasi-scientific treatise on the topic. Which is too much like work-related writing.
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Post by oshun on Sept 16, 2010 19:22:38 GMT -6
Relieve the pressure and then something hormonal might change just enough to make it easier. Well, stress causes the body's glucocorticoid levels to increase; when such levels remain high consistently, detrimental effects occur, including decreased libido. The latter is certainly an impediment to conception. Check out this article from the Science Centric site for a more detailed (but accessible to the scientifically literate layman) treatment of how stress affects fertility: Stress puts double whammy on reproductive system, fertilitySo there's a lot that has bee discovered since JRRT's time that can be extrapolated in a reasonable albeit "scientifictitious" sense to the Firstborn. I will read this!
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Post by ilmareaegnor on Sept 16, 2010 23:58:06 GMT -6
I will read this to!! pande please write it
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Post by russandol on Sept 17, 2010 0:53:58 GMT -6
Which is too much like work-related writing. No way!!! If you make it like work, few of us will be able to read it, and I count myself amongst the quasi-illiterate in Biology, beyond ctendophoras! Make it like Mel explaining the "Elvish birds and the bees" to Glorfindel!
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Post by erulisse on Sept 17, 2010 5:14:03 GMT -6
Couch it in a tale - a parable perhaps. I'd read it even as a dry, biological tretise, but I would prefer it to be surrounded by elves and humans discovering their own similarities and differences. Maybe sex education for Eldarion by both Aragon and Glorfindel? Just a thought to bring me chuckling into my day :-)
- Erulisse (one L)
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Post by surgicalsteel on Sept 17, 2010 5:24:38 GMT -6
Quote:(I supposed if pressed I could come up with some fantastic pseudo-scientific explanation of how that is possible.) *Raises hand and waves wildly* Oh, I can do that! I can do that! And in fact, have done so. Is it written down somewhere? I'm sure you've done so much better than I could ever do. I know, I know...I really need to write this down as a fully-fleshed out essay (or essays) in the style of Henry Gee's articles. Speculative science pertaining to an imaginary history! I believe we discussed this in a series of comments -- may have been on the Eregion LJ. Elves may have varying degrees of conscious control over the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, thus able to "meditate" (think of how Tibetan monks apparently exert control of autonomic function) their bodies into a fertile state. Steel and I have speculated this might involve increased sperm count and motility in elf-men among other things in both sexes. I need to pull all these snippets and thoughts together for a quasi-scientific treatise on the topic. Which is too much like work-related writing. Ooo, I remember having that discussion. I think the example of the Tibetan monks is apt - they seem to be able to tap into a much deeper control of things like heart rate/respiratory rate than many others can, apparently either suppressing the hypoxic trigger for respiration OR somehow manipulating their own metabolism so that they don't become hypoxic in the first place. For me, knowing that there's a real world example of individuals with that level of control of body functions that seem fairly simple (but are really fairly complicated), it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that elves may have some level of voluntary control over fertility. GnRH is produced/released by neurons in the hypothalamus in sort of a pulsatile fashion - it's not a steady release, but periodic bursts, and it seems to be the frequency of those bursts that triggers things like puberty and ovulation. If Tibetan monks can regulate brainstem functions through meditation, then I can buy Elves regulating hypothalamic GnRH activity (and hence fertility) through meditation.
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 17, 2010 7:25:49 GMT -6
Make it like Mel explaining the "Elvish birds and the bees" to Glorfindel! *snort* The idea of her explaining this to the man who had the chutzpah to erase her slate board and correct her equations is pretty amusing notion. As an aside, the same man (fond of deriving equations to calculate forces for controlled explosions necessary to bring down certain dark towers), as a boy, also had the chutzpah to sing the infamous ditty -- "Manwë's Little Pup" -- at his Grandmama Indis' salon. (This is a WIP which I am dying to get back to at some point.) Glorfindel and Aragorn explaining the facts of life to Eldarion is a good suggestion, too. Alternatively, I could use a couple of demiurges (Valar) who might discuss these differences. That has the potential to be wildly irreverent. I'm thinking of your Námo's experiences, Russa. Or I could write something non-fictional in "Science Blog" style; I'd like to think my science-oriented pieces on the Chimp Refuge were not too dry. At least I told they were not.
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 17, 2010 7:50:29 GMT -6
Ooo, I remember having that discussion. I think the example of the Tibetan monks is apt - they seem to be able to tap into a much deeper control of things like heart rate/respiratory rate than many others can, apparently either suppressing the hypoxic trigger for respiration OR somehow manipulating their own metabolism so that they don't become hypoxic in the first place. IIRC (but accounts may be anecdotal), they can also regulate body temperature through meditation. That's an excellent point on the pulsatile release of GnRH. For others reading this, GnRH= gonadotropin-releasing hormone; it's a peptide hormone composed of 10 amino acid residues, which, as Steel says, is produced in the hypothalamus. GnRH in turn stimulates the pituitary gland to release and luteinizing hormone (LH -- stimulates the production of steroid sex hormones in the ovaries and testes) and follicular stimulating hormone (FSH -- stimulates egg maturation and sperm production). So that the elves can tap into physiological functions in a manner akin to Tibetan monks provides a speculative framework that isn't so far off from Tolkien's contention that elves' fëar were linked in much more tightly with their hröar than that of their mortal kindred. Some elves may be better at the meditations needed for stimulation of GnRH, e.g., Fëanor and Nerdanel. I like to think that such control over physiology in general may require some training, too, as an elf-child matures. I believe we discussed a plot bunny in which a young Thornangor has trouble with acne because he's struggling with the meditations required to alleviate it. Here's an interesting article from Wired on the neuroscience of meditation: Buddha on the brainRichard Davidson is the husband of the OB/GYN who gracefully shepherded me through a high risk pregnancy when I was incubating the Elder Spawn.
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Post by surgicalsteel on Sept 17, 2010 8:21:18 GMT -6
I think you're right on the body temperature thing as well - and IIRC, thermoregulation's in the same general portion of the hypothalamus as GnRH production (anterior, I think, but neuroanatomy's a little hazy in the memory). So that'd even make me more likely to believe that the Elves might be able to control GnRH pulses, if another type of 'human' can use meditation to control another function from the same portion of the hypothalamus.
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Post by jael on Sept 17, 2010 9:59:06 GMT -6
*cough* On the subject of Elvish fertility and contraception, I think you may have seen how I handled it in King of Shadowed Halls, with the notion that it takes an extra mental/spiritual effort to produce a child, at the conception stage as well as the actual gestation and raising. And Thranduil, PTSD from his experiences in the war and stressed from ruling, simply can't manage it.
I had made the mistake in my very first story of saying that Thranduil had waited a very long time for the joys of parenthood and treasured Legolas greatly as a result, and I had to forestall the criticism from the canon Pharisees that Elves are perfect and could never possibly be infertile or die in childbirth or any of those other mortal failings.
This also explains quite a few other things, such as Thranduil's intact sex drive after thousands of years of marriage. It's important to note though, that this is my own invention -- fanon that grew out of fanon.
I, uh, also do that in a very non-scientific way with Oropher's, "If I think myself warm then I will be warm." However, this can only work up to a point. Tolkien himself mentions the Noldor suffering during their passage of the Helcaraxe, and i doubt that any body control would save an elf who fell into that freezing water from eventaully succumbing to hypothermia.
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Post by oshun on Sept 17, 2010 10:11:46 GMT -6
OK, Pande and Steel--I exalted both of you for these discussion points (Pande last night before I went to bed and Steel when I got on the computer just now!). I do love a little light science with my fantasy (I might like it heavier if I were more conversant with the vocabulary). And, dammit, as Tolkien points out, my elves are definitely human with a little something extra added.
The funny thing about mortality, is that while I am old as sin, I feel like I've barely begun to spend my first wind and could keep on trucking for quite a while before I was ready for a second wind even. I think life being worth living is all about curiosity, intelligence and the ability to adapt to change. But I doubt if I could do it celibate for Age after Age. That is where Tolkien's concept of Elven sexuality and I part ways. Purely personal. If I can't imagine it, I can't write it. It would just seem too stiff and false coming out of my mouth.
Tolkien noted that his late-Third Age elves weren't doing so well on the adaptability to change question either--hence, they had outlasted their productive period in Middle-earth (there is a long passage in one of his letters on that concept also, which I am not looking up this morning).
That difference between the First Age and Third Age for me as an elf-lover is really dramatic. I love the parts where they are the real movers and shakers of Middle-earth.
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