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Post by pandemonium on Sept 17, 2010 10:22:14 GMT -6
*cough* On the subject of Elvish fertility and contraception, I think you may have seen how I handled it in King of Shadowed Halls, with the notion that it takes an extra mental/spiritual effort to produce a child, at the conception stage as well as the actual gestation and raising. And Thranduil, PTSD from his experiences in the war and stressed from ruling, simply can't manage it. Oh, yes, I recall that. Your scenario with Thanduil fits in nicely with the allusions Tolkien made to the strong mind-body connection of elves, and also from a biological standpoint. Such a mechanism also makes sense so that Elves don't overpopulate the earth. My point here is that it's fun for me to look below the surface at what kind of "scientifictitious" biology contributes to the phenomenon even if such explanations are not revealed in a detailed and clinical manner in the fictional story. For my 'verse, it's an underpinning that offers internal consistency. But then "waving the wizard's wand" (no explanation other than "magic") is fine, too, in an imaginary world. Some folks do indeed see Elves in a much more spiritual light and as "unfallen" aspects of Men. Except for the fact that Elves experience a fall (Tolkien says as much) and are "marred" in their own way. I'm humanist and an unrepentant materialist, however, so whereas I do acknowledge the concepts of the fëa and hröa, I tend to write from the reductionist perspective. Fanon from fanon is fine by me, provided there's consistency in it. I easily fall into your world of a green sun because of these consistencies. Suffering and dying, too. Another fanon concept is that Elves are immune to bodily hurt. They may be more resilient, but not immune. Maybe they'd live 10 - 15 minutes longer in 32F seawater than a mortal.
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Post by russandol on Sept 17, 2010 12:02:35 GMT -6
Alternatively, I could use a couple of demiurges (Valar) who might discuss these differences. That has the potential to be wildly irreverent. I'm thinking of your Námo's experiences, Russa. Kinslayer II, or how Namo tested the reproductive functions of the hroar for the reborn he was engineering. Has lots of potential... ;D
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Post by erulisse on Sept 17, 2010 20:07:45 GMT -6
Kinslayer II, or how Namo tested the reproductive functions of the hroar for the reborn he was engineering. Has lots of potential... ;D Wow. This transcends simple self-regulation of bodily functions and puts things back into a pseudo-scientific mode. I remember when I first read that the elves didn't "die", but were "reborn in their children" and that shook me a bit (of course, I was a teenager at the time). I started thinking about how these immortal beings who were dying all over Middle Earth were going to be able to continue living. After all, they were the immortal dead - a problem term. Of course, Tolkien was writing this long before DNA and clones. But the concepts that he brought forth could so easily be plugged into cloning, and Namo is the overseer to that action. I'd love to see into the inner workings of his job. And to return to Tibetian mind control, it is said that higher level Buddhists can control their body temperature and their dreams and that those two things (along with other things also, I'm sure) are necessary to advance as a monk. If humans can learn to control such things, surely elves can (and even better if you listen to my personal elves - LOL). You've all been giving me great food for thought. Thanks all! - Erulisse (one L)
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Post by Darth Fingon on Sept 17, 2010 21:48:50 GMT -6
Oh, yes, I recall that. Your scenario with Thanduil fits in nicely with the allusions Tolkien made to the strong mind-body connection of elves, and also from a biological standpoint. Such a mechanism also makes sense so that Elves don't overpopulate the earth. My point here is that it's fun for me to look below the surface at what kind of "scientifictitious" biology contributes to the phenomenon even if such explanations are not revealed in a detailed and clinical manner in the fictional story. For my 'verse, it's an underpinning that offers internal consistency. But then "waving the wizard's wand" (no explanation other than "magic") is fine, too, in an imaginary world. I've been reading this discussion with interest so far and figured I might as well toss in my own ridiculous notions. I like to take a little from both sides (biology and spirituality or 'magic'), so in my writing, Elves have fairly good but not perfect control over their fertility. Most pregnancies are planned, but the occasional surprise baby does show up. Glorfindel is one, Gil-galad is another, and Sidaizon and Eäzinya have one that was casually talked about as a 'maybe' but then just happened. The biological explanation I go with is exactly what others have mentioned already: that Elves, like the aforementioned monks, have better control over what we view as autonomous bodily functions. Most conceptions are a matter of the parents desiring to have a child, but it's also necessary to actively desire not to have a child in order to guarantee that one isn't accidentally created. If parents give themselves over entirely to passion, lose control, and let nature take its course, there may be unexpected consequences. I plan on going into detail on this in a future chapter of Further Shadow, when Glorfindel has to stupidly ask Fingolfin how babies are made. The spiritual mumbo-jumbo side to it is that every Elf is born with a predetermined number of children he or she will create (whether this be zero or two or six or any other number), which is to say, each Elf is able to split his or her fëa only a certain number of times in order to create new life. The total number of children produced by any given couple is therefore the number of fëar allowed to the mother plus those allowed to the father. There'll also be some nonsense about this in future stories of mine. In Valinor, the Tetillë tells Sidaizon that all five children are bound to him, and in something else I have planned, Elrond visits a crazy Sindarin witch doctor before his wedding and is rather disappointed to learn he'll only have one child.
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Post by crowdaughter on Sept 18, 2010 9:09:02 GMT -6
The spiritual mumbo-jumbo side to it is that every Elf is born with a predetermined number of children he or she will create (whether this be zero or two or six or any other number), which is to say, each Elf is able to split his or her fëa only a certain number of times in order to create new life. The total number of children produced by any given couple is therefore the number of fëar allowed to the mother plus those allowed to the father. This reminds me a bit of the Horcrux creation in the Harry Potter 'verse. A dark mage can do it only so many times until he will become completely inhuman because he has split off too many pieces of his soul. Of course, in that case one has to wonder about Nerdanel. How did she manage to create so many sons without suffering the same fate as Miriel? Edit: and nice to see you back, Oh supreme Lizard!
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Post by randy on Sept 18, 2010 10:06:59 GMT -6
Of course, in that case one has to wonder about Nerdanel. How did she manage to create so many sons without suffering the same fate as Miriel?
Nerdanel was an exceptionally sturdy woman. However, all those babies were created and nurtured by Feanor's awesome 'spirit of fire'.
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Post by oshun on Sept 18, 2010 13:46:08 GMT -6
I've been reading this discussion with interest so far and figured I might as well toss in my own ridiculous notions. I like to take a little from both sides (biology and spirituality or 'magic'), so in my writing, Elves have fairly good but not perfect control over their fertility. Most pregnancies are planned, but the occasional surprise baby does show up. Glorfindel is one, Gil-galad is another, and Sidaizon and Eäzinya have one that was casually talked about as a 'maybe' but then just happened. The biological explanation I go with is exactly what others have mentioned already: that Elves, like the aforementioned monks, have better control over what we view as autonomous bodily functions. Most conceptions are a matter of the parents desiring to have a child, but it's also necessary to actively desire not to have a child in order to guarantee that one isn't accidentally created. If parents give themselves over entirely to passion, lose control, and let nature take its course, there may be unexpected consequences. I plan on going into detail on this in a future chapter of Further Shadow, when Glorfindel has to stupidly ask Fingolfin how babies are made. The spiritual mumbo-jumbo side to it is that every Elf is born with a predetermined number of children he or she will create (whether this be zero or two or six or any other number), which is to say, each Elf is able to split his or her fëa only a certain number of times in order to create new life. The total number of children produced by any given couple is therefore the number of fëar allowed to the mother plus those allowed to the father. There'll also be some nonsense about this in future stories of mine. In Valinor, the Tetillë tells Sidaizon that all five children are bound to him, and in something else I have planned, Elrond visits a crazy Sindarin witch doctor before his wedding and is rather disappointed to learn he'll only have one child. I like several of your above concepts--the more magical ones, of course. I like the predetermination idea or as Crowdaughter named it the Horcrux factor--that an Elf can only use X amount of energy before it's all used up. That would go a long way toward explaining how Finwe and his sons produced such big families by Elven standards, with Feanor leading the pack in seer numbers. Of course, then that leaves Fingon, the greatest Elf ever, inexplicably lacking on the production front. That could explained by noting that he really isn't that into women or that he died too young. The dying young and the hardship of flight and exile could also explain why there are so few kids among the grandchildren of Finwe--the rock stars/super heroes [anti-heroes] of Tolkien's legendarium. In Valinor, the Tetillë tells Sidaizon that all five children are bound to him, and in something else I have planned, Elrond visits a crazy Sindarin witch doctor before his wedding and is rather disappointed to learn he'll only have one child. These are awesome storylines that I really look forward to reading.
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Scarlet
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Merry be the Greenwood
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Post by Scarlet on Sept 19, 2010 3:49:48 GMT -6
... - especially if, because it would be Elrond's child, that perplexing choice kicks in again... My point here would be, Was the choice given to Elrond's descendants because of Elrond's ancestry, or also because it was all taken place in middle-earth - the land of the mortals. It was mentioned that the mortals allowed in Aman were a huge exception, and that had been granted due to special extraordinary services performed for the greater good. So, will it be logical to assume the any child born in Aman, is going to be able to choose mortality? I don't think so. AND, add to that the fact that Elrond DID choose to be of the Elves. I always wondered why the choice was taken from Elros's descendants, but given to Elrond's... There's some saying in this. Don't you think?
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Scarlet
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Post by Scarlet on Sept 19, 2010 3:53:23 GMT -6
Personally I like the idea of Elrond and Celebrian having a reunion baby, something along the lines of: "You're what?!" "You heard me." " But I thought you were just getting fat." I am a firm believer in the idea if anything unexpected can happen, it will. XD Ahmm, coughing... You wanna rephrase that line in bold for Elrond, or do you really hate him THAT much?
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Post by russandol on Sept 19, 2010 8:18:17 GMT -6
When I first read the passage of LACE about conceiving children, I did not blink an eye. Choosing their timing is what many of us do, too. So, whether the Elves did it by using natural contraceptives, barrier methods, or whatever, I was not really bothered. Later, I found the fanon topic about the conscious begetting of children. I did not buy it, though I it can be used with great effect in romantic fics. I completely agree about the elves having tighter control of their bodies, if only because otherwise they would fall prey to decay over the ages, as ours unfortunately do. As part of this control, it is possible that they become more/less fertile at the relevant times (luckily, Pande will provide the science behind it ). I am not sure, however, about this control being entirely conscious, even less like an on/off switch on the spur of the moment. So that, in my own interpretation, a couple would not be able to say "now", and here comes the baby a year later. Except, perhaps, if the father was called Feanor! Mmm, the Horcrux idea of being able to partition the parents' fear sounds a little like cloning / genetical manipulation... Wonder how your plot will use it, Darth...
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Post by pandemonium on Sept 19, 2010 8:46:21 GMT -6
When I first read the passage of LACE about choosing the timing to conceive a child, I did not blink an eye. That's what many of us do, too. So, whether the Elves did it by using natural contraceptives, barrier methods, or whatever, I was not really bothered. Later, I found the fanon topic about the conscious begetting of children. I did not buy it, though I it can be used with great effect in romantic fics. I completely agree about the elves having tighter control of their bodies, if only because otherwise they would fall prey to decay over the ages, as ours unfortunately do. As part of this control, it is possible that they become more/less fertile at the relevant times (luckily, Pande will provide the science behind it ). I am not sure, however, about this control being entirely conscious, even less like an on/off switch on the spur of the moment... So that, in my own interpretation, there would be a marked reduction in birth rates in times of war or other difficulties, but a couple would not be able to say "now", and here comes the baby a year later. Excepts, perhaps, if the father was called Feanor! As noted above... As in any human population, there would be variation in expression of such traits, and hence like other human populations, there will be elvish couples who are infertile. But something controls fertility. It's up to the fan ficcish author to address this. However, I can hear JRRT's "I don't care" ringing in my ears. Actually, it sounds less like genetic manipulation or cloning than it does a number of tightly regulated biological processes that have limitations imposed on them, e.g., the loss of telomeres on the end of chromosomes that limit replication, apoptosis or programmed cell death, and epigenetic signaling (one of the reasons you do not have webs of skin between your fingers . Whereas Darth calls his notion "spiritual mumbo jumbo," I can readily see extrapolations (in a purely scientifictitous sense) of his idea to real-life biological processes. As for elvish reincarnation, I was roundly spanked in a forum when I had the temerity to suggest that Tolkien's work had plenty of science fiction under the radar. Er, uh, *cough* The Notion Club Papers *cough* anyone? This was overtly sci-fi as was The Lost Road and both tie directly into Middle-earth. But when reading Tolkien's later writings concerning elvish reincarnation in which the elvish fëar are not reborn but reincarnated, well, the scientifictitious elements of that are just too much to resist.
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Post by russandol on Sept 19, 2010 10:05:15 GMT -6
Some elves may be better at the meditations needed for stimulation of GnRH, e.g., Fëanor and Nerdanel. Typical domestic scene: "Now, Fëanor darling, your fiery spirit will need to wait five more minutes. My gamma waves have not yet settled into the right pattern!" Seriously, I don't argue with the way training in meditation could enhance the ability of elves to control factors affecting their fertility. But I still struggle with the "baby on demand" triggered completely consciously and instantly by the parents. Ok, probability of success may be considerably higher, but it remains possible that despite both parents' wishes, it just won't work. I don't think fertility was a prominent topic in JRRT's mind when he wrote LACE. I can imagine his horror at several of the interpretations written on this thread. Time travel falls neatly under science-fiction, does it not? What argument did they use to deny it?
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