Faith of Elrohir and Elladan

[pandemonium]

Sept 19, 2010 10:05:15 GMT -6 russandol said:

Seriously, I don't argue with the way training in meditation could enhance the ability of elves to control factors affecting their fertility. But I still struggle with the "baby on demand" triggered completely consciously and instantly by the parents. Ok, probability of success may be considerably higher, but it remains possible that despite both parents' wishes, it just won't work.

That's how it works in my 'verse, too. It is not instantaneous nor under complete conscious control a la [Liam Neeson as Zeus]"RELEASE THE OOCYTE!"[/Liam Neeson as Zeus], but the meditations that set up the factors that increase the probability of conception are under conscious control, but not at all like an instant on-off switch.

Time travel falls neatly under science-fiction, does it not? What argument did they use to deny it?

Oh, I didn't even get that far because I had to remind the fellow who objected that natural history is in fact science. If I have to do that for someone who claims scientific literacy, I may as well try to educate the cat.

[samtyr]

"But I thought you were just getting fat."

--"Ahmm, coughing... You wanna rephrase that line in bold for Elrond, or do you really hate him THAT much? "

---I don't really hate Elrond that much (though I do have a lot of varied issues with him); it's just that I've witnessed that same scene (with a few minor variations) irl several times. [g]

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 19, 2010 8:18:17 GMT -6 russandol said:

So that, in my own interpretation, a couple would not be able to say "now", and here comes the baby a year later. Except, perhaps, if the father was called Feanor!

No, I don't go with the 'baby on demand' notion either. What I was leaning toward with the active desire to create a child is that this sort of greater bodily control would make conception more likely, but not guarantee any results. So while some couples might achieve baby on demand, most will have to do some trying, and some will fail.

(In a future story, Fingon and Lailaniel decide to have a baby, and both assume it will be an easy task. Oddly enough, they have no luck.)

On the other end of things, I think the ability for Elves to control their own infertility is a little more important. Otherwise the damn immortals would overpopulate the planet and chaos would ensue. So I do stick by the idea that they can fairly easily prevent conception if they make a determined effort. (Turning things 'off' is therefore much simpler than turning things 'on', so to speak.) However, it isn't foolproof, so anyone REALLY set against having a baby would have to use some kind of contraception.

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 19, 2010 8:46:21 GMT -6 pandemonium said:

Actually, it sounds less like genetic manipulation or cloning than it does a number of tightly regulated biological processes that have limitations imposed on them, e.g., the loss of telomeres on the end of chromosomes that limit replication, apoptosis or programmed cell death, and epigenetic signaling (one of the reasons you do not have webs of skin between your fingers . Whereas Darth calls his notion "spiritual mumbo jumbo," I can readily see extrapolations (in a purely scientifictitous sense) of his idea to real-life biological processes.

I like how you can apply science to fanfiction plot ideas I pulled out of my arse.

Anyhow, there's more spiritual mumbo-jumbo than just the passing of fëar from parent to child. There's also some arcane nonsense about psychic connexions between the child and the parent from whom he/she received the fëa.

But when reading Tolkien's later writings concerning elvish reincarnation in which the elvish fëar are not reborn but reincarnated, well, the scientifictitious elements of that are just too much to resist.

Yeah, I don't even try to bother thinking of any reasonable explanation for this other than 'magic'. I do prefer reincarnation to rebirth, though. The canonical idea behind this is that if Aulë could create Dwarves, which were then given souls by Eru, then it's not unreasonable to assume that another Vala (Mandos) could create bodies for Elven fëar in need of rehousing. Using the memory of the fëa, he could even create a body identical to the one that had died.

(Stupid side note: this is why the Valadávar in my Valinor story insist on burying their dead in the ground. They have to send the bodies to Mandos in the hope that it will aid in a quick restoration. Because Mandos lives underground. Logical! Conversely, the Yaranénor burn everything because they are terrified of zombies.)

[pandemonium]

I don't think fertility was a prominent topic in JRRT's mind when he wrote LACE. I can imagine his horror at several of the interpretations written on this thread.

Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have...

Heh. Among those freedoms and powers might be the ability to control conception "naturally" and (more or less) reliably -- sort of a devout Catholic's "best of both worlds" scenario.

[pandemonium]

I like how you can apply science to fanfiction plot ideas I pulled out of my arse.

Don't tell anyone, but my "scientific" explanations might not pass peer-review.

The canonical idea behind this is that if Aulë could create Dwarves, which were then given souls by Eru, then it's not unreasonable to assume that another Vala (Mandos) could create bodies for Elven fëar in need of rehousing. Using the memory of the fëa, he could even create a body identical to the one that had died.

Yep. That canonical notion opens up all sorts of possibilities!

(Stupid side note: this is why the Valadávar in my Valinor story insist on burying their dead in the ground. They have to send the bodies to Mandos in the hope that it will aid in a quick restoration. Because Mandos lives underground. Logical! Conversely, the Yaranénor burn everything because they are terrified of zombies.)

Don't say it is a stupid side note. Say rather it's an enlightening, erudite side note necessary to understanding the Yaranénor's fear of zombies.

Because Mandos lives underground.

With snakes and worms.

[randy]

On the other end of things, I think the ability for Elves to control their own infertility is a little more important. Otherwise the damn immortals would overpopulate the panet and chaos would ensue. So I do stick by the idea that they can fairly easily prevent conception if they make a determined effort. (Turning things 'off' is therefore much simpler than turning things 'on', so to speak.) However, it isn't foolproof, so anyone REALLY set against having a baby would have to use some kind of contraception.

I much prefer this explanation to the one JRRT gave us in the L&C -- they simply stop reproducing because they lose all interest in sex after a short time.

[erulisse]

I remember the freedom that birth control gave us when it first became generally acceptable and available. All of a sudden we had the ability to control our own procreation. Sexual congress increased because the fear of "accidents" was lessened - at least among my peers.

I also remember that many people had more difficulty conceiving when they were truly ready for a child than they had thought would be the case. In fact, several friends of mine were never able to have a biological child and adopted instead. Some doctors blamed this inability to conceive on many years of taking birth control hormonal medications. I don't know if this is still the current thought, but it was expostulated then.

Have we totally lost the point of the original query, five pages in? It's still interesting reading, even if my scientific knowledge is far less than most of you who are contributing to the discussion.

- Erulisse (one L)

[tanis]

I'm with Eurlisse (one L) on this one, the science being thrown around out here is way over my head, though it was fun to follow the discussion. I'm strictly a right brained, creative type; in fact, I think I have two right halves and no left at all, which could be why I have such trouble balancing my checkbook - and the IRS.

Can I pose another question? Canon or fanon - elves don't ever sleep? And if this is canon, when they are injured, can they reach the dream paths?

What did this start as? Faith of Elrohir and Elladan? I gotta back and look at the start of this again.

[Darth Fingon]

Sept 19, 2010 21:08:30 GMT -6 tanis said:

Can I pose another question? Canon or fanon - elves don't ever sleep?

Definite fanon.

[elfscribe]

Sept 19, 2010 15:30:41 GMT -6 randy said:

I much prefer this explanation to the one JRRT gave us in the L&C -- they simply stop reproducing because they lose all interest in sex after a short time.

I agree Randy. That is such a bleak thought for immortal beings to have a brief spawning period and then no more physical expression of love (or lust even) for eternity. I accept the argument that they had to limit population growth (although the numerous wars seem to have handled that) but I much prefer the idea that they had advanced control over when eggs dropped (a more sure-fire rhythm method as it were) or sperm motility or something else. Surely Tolkien could have envisioned something other than losing interest. But I'm not even going to get started on LaCE here.

[erulisse]

If their bodies don't age, I can't see them truly losing sexual desire. Sexual desire must be followed by physical ability and it is that ability that decreases over the years. I feel quite strongly that elves would enjoy physical sex as another aspect of closeness or love, but as with humans, you don't necessarily want children to be the result of every joining. If elves can control their reproductive habits to have children when they both felt ready to raise them, it would be a type of self-regulating birth control. Each party would have to feel that they were ready to make the emotional, physical, and monetary commitment to raising their child and all things would have to be aligned (and the stars would have to be propitious and the moon in the right phase, etc.....).

- Erulisse (one L)